PRR Baldwin Shark question for you SPFs

[reinhardtjh]

Someone posted to some forum (maybe it was this one) that the Pennsylvania's sharknoses spent their last days working the Delmarva Peninsula.

I only have the Wither's Pub. book (Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume Four - Baldwin Cabs and Transfer Units) as a reference.  According to it, the BF-15, BF-15a, BF-16 classes, both A and B units finished out their time in the Lake division - Columbus, Cleveland, etc hauling ore up to the Grate Lakes.  I doubt any made it to Delmarva.

The passenger sharks were all moved to the NY division around 1957 and finished out on the New York & Long Branch (NY & LB) doing commuter service.  They were retired between 1963 and 1965.  They may have been on the Delmarva line occasionally, but I don't think it would have been a regular thing.  Most of the pictures in the Wither's book show 2-unit lashups consisting of an A/B pair. 

Just to clarify, the Delmarva saw no passenger sharks, just 4 axle freight units.  Passenger power at that time, while it lasted, were 4 axle Baldwin road units (RS12s maybe, can't remember), not cab units. 

That's consistent with the Wither's book's claims and makes sense.

That would not surprise me.  I would wonder if the track would take those things.  I used the example of the passenger sharks just to illustrate overpowering a train.   (Were there any B units for the passenger sharks?).

Yep. PRR bought 9 A-B-A sets so there were 18 A and 9 B units.

My question was about the freight sharks.   If they did run A-B, I would assume that there was some means of turning them on that line.   Considering where it was, I would guess that steam disappeared early on that line, thus steam facilities would have done likewise.  If the railroad took out anything that could have turned a locomotive, expecting that it would not need it, the motive power consist would have to be road switcher configured locomotives, or, if cab units, a combination with an A on either end.

According to the Withers book, none made it to the Delmarva, at least after about 1956 or so. Pictures show them running as freight units in A-A, A-B, A-B-A and A-B-B-A lashups.

..........and Spikey, I have seen more than one photograph of the passenger sharks in an A-A pair at the front of a four or six car train.   I have read and have had people tell me that they were so unreliable, that the railroad had to pair them because when one broke down, the other one could at least complete the trip.   The E-7s would not have had the reliability problem  Considering that the NY & LB did not have any really nasty and protracted grades, either, it is likely that the overheating problem that E-7s showed on hilly terrain would not have manifested itself in that kind of work.

Most pictures I have seen show A-B or single A units, but text does make mention of usually having 2 units just in case of a breakdown.  Being in commuter service, I'd imagine that there would be a fair number of trains running concurrently on the line and a breakdown of one train would cause a pretty big problem hence the multiple units for even small trains.  When passenger service wound down far enough PRR moved the E's to the NY&LB and replaced the Sharks, but not until the mid 60's timeframe.

Funny, I found an image on the cover of the referenced work online.  The lower photograph shows an A-A pair, still in "as delivered" paint scheme, passing the Clayton, Delaware station.

I do not know when the photograph was taken, but the freight cars behind the pair suggest mid-1960s or later.   Would that not be late for that paint scheme?  Did not all of the sharks receive the single stripe scheme earlier than most?   As troublesome as they were, which would have meant frequent major shoppings, I would expect that they would have been repainted before most other locomotives.

I can't find a large enough image to check the unit number, but mid-60's would be too late for the BF-15 sharks, they were all retired by mid-1965 (most in 1963 and '64) and would not have looked that good.  The BF-16 sharks were all retired 66-67, also would not have looked that good.  The BP-20 passenger sharks had the B-units all retired by 1963 and the freight modified A's were gone in the early 60's as well. The non-modified passenger sharks lasted until 1965.  So I wonder about the date of that picture.  It looks more like a freight shark.  I'd think the date was off by maybe up to a decade and it's really sometime in the 50's but I can't say for sure.

Again, the book references and the online MP229's (PRR's loco assignment documentation) all put the freight sharks in western PA and Ohio from the mid 50's onward and the passenger sharks on the NY&LB working out of Meadows, NJ.  Any appearance on the Delmarva was probably a rare occurrence due to some spot power shortage.

[sirenwerks]

John, this isn't a case of 'I read it on the internet'.  Normally, I wouldn't cite Morning Sun text as a reliable source of information but what MS does offer is lots of pretty pictures and, starting with the cover, MS's Trackside on the PRR Delmarva Lines 1965-1967 with John P. Stroup provides numerous instances of photographic evidence showing Pennsy BFF or whatever freight sharks on the Delmarva in the 60s.  Ergo, if I were you[/size] I wouldn't go citing that Withers book as a reliable reference in academic circles without cross checking it.

[reinhardtjh]

I don't have the MS book for reference so I can't see what's inside, only the cover shot and a pretty small sized one (I found in an Ebay listing).  I do have the PRR's own Motive Power (Form MP229) lists. However those only exist for a few dates and things could have moved around in between.  But obviously the pictures happened and pictures would trump documentation.  Besides that, sh*t happens and who know where locos might have been sent for whatever reason.  I'm just wondering if the claimed dates are off because a photographer didn't label correctly.


And this is probably another case of "If you are not sure if you should speak up, then you shouldn't."  I debated. I lost.

[Spikre]

 
  there are pics of some of the early E8s in Brunswick Green.
   and in 1969 while ex-PRR E7s were barely running on the NY&LB,
  ex NYC E7s were sometimes pulling Flexi Van trains.
  NYC took much better care of its locos than PRR did.
      Spikre
       

[sirenwerks]

I'm just wondering if the claimed dates are off because a photographer didn't label correctly.

The book's packed up right so don't quote me on this, but the gist was the pics were taken over a short window frame, hence the title, and the dates were referenced to visits during the author's Air Force, or some such service period, so they were documented.  But I get what you're saying, you can only make so many notes on slide frames and then collectors and pubishers tend to skew that data once it leaves the photographer's hands and his/her memory starts to dwindle.

[Spikre]

 
  in the Withers book here most 2 unit Sharks on the NY&LB are A-A sets.
  there are less pics of the A-B sets than Single A units pics.{6 lone A unit Pics to 3 A-B Pics}
  maybe this is an earlier version of the book that is here ?
   there may have been 2 separate printings of this book ?
  then there is what was seen personally which the Salt Air fogged me out ?
  also the BP20/16s that were in the Freight Pool didn't run on the NY&LB.
     Spikre
       

[prr7161]

The photo at Clayton on the Delmarva book cover is definitely mid-60's.  The lead unit in the photo is 2012, with a nose ladder attached.  Nose ladders were added to the Sharks in 1961/62, and 2012 was one of a large group of BF-16s scrapped in January of '67 (from the Withers book).  So the photo was taken somewhere between '62 and '66.  Although that was late days for 5-stripe schemes, it may just not have seemed worth it to do a full repaint on an unreliable, 2nd-tier unit.

As far as the MP229 data, they indicate which road foreman of engines was responsible for the locomotive records, and which shop was considered the "home" shop for the loco.  But that didn't mean the locos were only used on that division, particularly in diesel days.  For example, huge blocks of PRR passenger cabs were assigned to the Philadelphia Division and home shopped at Harrisburg, mainly because they would tie onto passenger trains from the east there.  But they would do out-and-backs to Chicago and St. Louis (neither of which had passenger cabs homed there) and points in between.  The freight Sharks went to the Lake Division because of the mineral traffic, a lot of which originated around Cleveland, Ashtabula, and Erie, but they could take freights pretty far east from there.  2012 might have gotten detoured on its way back west that day.

[Iain]

You know, it would have been really cool if one of the sharks had wound up in Norfolk, where PRR and NS shared a double track line with (I believe) an NS dispatcher.  I have seen photos of an NS DS4-4-1000 sitting next to a PRR Baldwin switcher in Little Creek.

[Spikre]

 
  I'm going to claim "Geezer Rites" on this Subject of NY&LB Sharks,
  as I seem to be the Only person here that actually saw them in Action.
  so lets break this down,by 1957 PRR moved 14 Shark A units and 5 B
  units to the NY&LB.
  Why ?
   because in Comparison test with EMD E7s and Alco PA units the Baldwins
  made better time with the trains.
  it should be noted that for what ever reasons PRR seemed to take a Dislike
  to their PA units Early on.but did leave the PB units in the Buffalo Passenger Pool.
  the Withers book says that PB units ran with the Sharks before they were sent
  to the NY&LB,but that doesn't seem correct,as the Sharks had Air Throttles,not
  Electric MU.any one ever seen any pics of Passenger Sharks running with PB units ?
   now recall that NY&LB power had to change at Rahway,or near there,a North Bound
  A-B Shark set would be an Operating nuisance in that they would need to be "Y"ed,
  as would a Single A unit.seems if enuff units were running they would have favored
  the A-A sets especially on longer trains.
  what was seen on the weekends was mainly single A units,the weekend trains were
 shorter and the Meadows Shop would be doing work on the units not being used.
  so do we leave this here ?
     Spikre
       
 

[Spikre]

 
  one does wonder why PRR never used the Centipedes on the NY&LB trains ?
  maybe they would have sunk into the sand sub-roadbed ?
  but they would have looked really good at Asbury Park.
     Spikre
       

[Spikre]

 
  a couple of Last Thoughts on 50-60s NY&LB Diesel trains operated by PRR :
  they never seemed to try out the F-M Erie Builts on the NY&LB.
  PRR never seemed to consider using Hood Units on the NY&LB even though they
  had S-G equipped units from Alco,Baldwin and EMD,wonder why ?
    Spikre
       

[Spikre]

 
     one Final Loco that PRR could have run on the NY&LB,
   the S/G Equipped RSD-7/DL600As they used over Horse
   Shoe Curve as Passenger Helpers for a number of years.
   they would have fit in nicely with the CNJ Train Masters.
   speaking of which,for Years the Diesel Spotters Guide listed
   CNJ T-Ms as 2400-2412,but CNJ had 2413 running around
    all over its system !!
   think sometime later that was corrected ?
         Spikre