Weekend Update 9/5/21

[packers#1]

Sawyer,

Yeeeeeeeeeeessssssss!  Looking forward to following along.  I would suggest adding the passing siding in the back at a minimum for staging.  On my previous Carolina Central style layout that I built fifteen or twenty years ago, I even added two stub tracks in addition to the passing siding back there.  You’ll be glad you did.   

DFF

I’m hype DFF, gonna be plenty of kudzu along the Reedy River!

As far as staging, I don’t think a passing siding back there is really a route I want to go because it’s going to be 30” wide and against a wall (I’d have built an HCD with three side access but the way we use the room that isn’t feasible).

BUT, where I’m putting this layout is a 12’ wall and there’s nothing keeping me from going along the other wall. And for the most part, this is going to be a single train, out and back layout operationally, so I think I’ll take the curved turnout I have and stick it in the top left corner, so it can feed off the side to a shelf for staging. I can eventually add a couple more tracks to have staging for a couple fun (read Norfolk Southern) trains to watch loop. Thanks for the nudge!

[eja]

packers#1


Looks like a fun layout in the making.

Two comments :

1. That "like a glove fit" sure bring the track awfully close to edge of the table.  Hope you never have  a derailment in those locations.

2.  Hove you considered making that track along the back edge something other than perfectly straight?  A few well placed rocks would give you an excuse to put some curves into it which would, in my opinion, make it more interesting.

Best wishes on the next steps ... keep us posted on the results.

ed

[PiperguyUMD]

Now that school's started up again had to pack away the modules. I did manage to peck away at a few projects though, details in the layout thread.

[packers#1]

packers#1


Looks like a fun layout in the making.

Two comments :

1. That "like glove fit" sure bring the track awfully close to edge of the table.  Hope you never have  a derailment in those locations.

2.  Hove you considered making that track along the back edge something other than perfectly straight?  A few well placed rocks would give you an excuse to put some curves into it which would, in my opinion, make it more interesting.

Best wich on the next steps ... keep us posted on the results.

ed

Ed,

Thanks for your thoughts!

1) when it’s tacked down the curve is further back from the edge on both ends, this is more just to get everything in. I’ll probably end up redoing the passing siding as well.

2) the back track is all going to be hidden by buildings; for the area I’m modeling, you would have another train in the background like that. The only reason I have the ends connected is that, while I enjoy switching, I know the #1 thing I enjoy in this hobby is building scenery and watching trains roll through it. This layout gives me the ability to have a fun out and back operation, build some cool scenery, and watch trains loop through it when I want to just take it in.

[davefoxx]

I’m hype DFF, gonna be plenty of kudzu along the Reedy River!

As far as staging, I don’t think a passing siding back there is really a route I want to go because it’s going to be 30” wide and against a wall (I’d have built an HCD with three side access but the way we use the room that isn’t feasible).

BUT, where I’m putting this layout is a 12’ wall and there’s nothing keeping me from going along the other wall. And for the most part, this is going to be a single train, out and back layout operationally, so I think I’ll take the curved turnout I have and stick it in the top left corner, so it can feed off the side to a shelf for staging. I can eventually add a couple more tracks to have staging for a couple fun (read Norfolk Southern) trains to watch loop. Thanks for the nudge!

Sawyer,

Sounds like a plan!  Don’t hesitate to start a build thread in the Layout Engineering Forum, so we can follow along with your progress and ideas.

About that kudzu; keep an eye on it, or it will take over your layout. 

On that note, I haven’t really shared with others the real benefit of model kudzu.  I’m sure you’d understand, though.   Don’t like that tree you built?  Kudzu!  Don’t like the finish on that structure you painted?  Kudzu!  That automobile is from the wrong era?  Kudzu!  Can’t get the creosote look on your trestle and line poles right?  Kudzu!

Kudzos,
DFF

[Angus Shops]

I spent the weekend filling out the consists of my passenger fleet. My Rapido Canadians (2 sets) have been looking pretty since they arrived, but it was time to work out the details.

During my time period (1958, mostly) and location (Field - Golden) there were four daily passenger trains in each direction: the premier Canadian (#’s 1 and 2), the second fiddle Dominion (#’s 7 and 8 ), the summer only St. Paul - Vancouver Mountaineer (13 and 14), and the all stops mail and express (5 and 6). All of these trains passed through Field - Golden in a short time window of about noon to about 6:00pm. I don’t have the resources to model all 8 trains, so the plan is to do representative sample of one of each train. Which one going in which direction remains undetermined. Train length is limited to 12 cars and 3 locos. These trains will pass through my layout without switching, with a station stop in Field for crew change, and Golden (in reality the Canadian didn’t stop here, and it was a flag stop for the Mountaineer). Reviewing the summer 1958 public timetable (I love public timetables; they’re full of interesting details, such as the fact that Capt. J. R. Ogilvy-Wills operated a CP recommended guest ranch called “The Meadows” at Fairmount Hot Springs, and that CP found it worthwhile to include the following note in the timetable: “Rock Ballast - Many of the more important lines of the Canadian Pacific are completely rock ballasted, as follows- From Montreal to Quebec City, Megantic, Ottawa and Windsor, from Ottawa to Bedell and Chalk River, from Toronto to Romford and from North Bay to west of Chapleau. Further west, rock ballasting extends from Fort William to Winnipeg and from Ruby Creek to Vancouver, a total of 2,944 miles.” These leads to several interesting questions: if not ballasted with rock, what was the track ballasted with, and did the CP not consider the mainline through the Rockies and across most of BC to be one if it’s “more important lines”?)  reveals some interesting data:

Eastbound 14 met westbound 7 at Field (11:40 am), westbound 5 met eastbound 8 at Golden (1:35pm), and eastbound 6 met westbound 1 at Field (4:08 pm).

Eastbound 2 passes westbound 13, 7, and 5 at the 5 lonely sidings in the 35 miles between Golden and Field.

This should yield some interesting operations! Now I just need to figure out which trains to include (note: my layout is point to point with no turning loops, so each train can only appear once during an operating session. A limit I know, but a space choice I made.

Consists are also from the public timetable, which includes details of the equipment on each train, up to a point. It may say for example “12 sec., 1 DR”, so you know it’s a heavyweight 12 - 1, but not which of several series of 12 - 1’s possible. If anybody has a source for consists with car names and numbers…

The Canadian is Rapido set “A” with an extra Manor from set “B”, a pair of U series tourist sleeper, and less one of the 2 coaches. Arranged baggage, tourist, tourist, Skyline dome, coach, Manor, Manor, Chateau, dining car, Manor, Chateau, dome obs. (10 cars set, less 1, plus 3, for 12 cars)

The Dominion from front to rear is Budd (all Budds from set “B”) baggage, Budd coach, Budd Skyline dome, 2 heavyweight tourist sleepers, R series 8 sec., DR, 2 cpts. heavyweight sleeper, Budd dining car, heavyweight 12 - 1 (probably a T series), another R series, Budd Manor, Budd Chateau, Budd dome obs. I may add a Budd coach (I have 2 spares) and delete the second R series sleeper (which I don’t have anyway, but have always wanted to do in resin). I’ll also need to build a T series sleeper.

The Mountaineer is an interesting, colourful train. Most of the train would consist of a wide variety of American road sleepers, many in tourist charter service. My train will have a 4400 series through baggage at the front. These cars were built as ‘silk cars’, basically an express boxcar used in dedicated silk train service. When this service died out they were modified with a baggage car type door and used as baggage cars but distinct with their obvious 40 foot boxcar heritage. This will be followed by a 2200 series ‘curved side’ coach, a Grove series 10 - 5 ‘curved side’ sleeping car, 3 foreign road sleepers, an A series CP dining car, 3 more foreign road sleepers, a Cape series obs. lounge sleeper, and a open observation car.

Lastly, 5 and 6 will have a brace of express reefers at the front (I have a thing for express reefers), including wood cars I have in hand but also 8 hatch overhead ice bunker cars I’m currently working on, a 60 foot wood baggage/express, a heavyweight baggage express, 2 ‘curved side’ RPO/express cars, 4 ‘curved side’ baggage/express cars, and a single coach bringing up the markers. I’ll use a 2200 coach I have in hand in place of “N.A.C.” (not air conditioned) car the timetable specifies (a definite upgrade in service). I may also add or subtract as required express reefers in Golden to simulate fruit loads and empties destined to/from the fruit growing area in Creston BC. These cars would be coming up the Windemere Sub. to Golden for movement east or west. I the real world this would be unlikely as Creston ( and Okanagan) fruit would likely head west on the famous Kettle Valley or east on the Crowsnest route. But it’s my universe.

I apologize for the long winded post, but I find it helpful to turn thoughts into words.

[craigolio1]

I spent the weekend filling out the consists of my passenger fleet. My Rapido Canadians (2 sets) have been looking pretty since they arrived, but it was time to work out the details.

During my time period (1958, mostly) and location (Field - Golden) there were four daily passenger trains in each direction: the premier Canadian (#’s 1 and 2), the second fiddle Dominion (#’s 7 and 8 ), the summer only St. Paul - Vancouver Mountaineer (13 and 14), and the all stops mail and express (5 and 6). All of these trains passed through Field - Golden in a short time window of about noon to about 6:00pm. I don’t have the resources to model all 8 trains, so the plan is to do representative sample of one of each train. Which one going in which direction remains undetermined. Train length is limited to 12 cars and 3 locos. These trains will pass through my layout without switching, with a station stop in Field for crew change, and Golden (in reality the Canadian didn’t stop here, and it was a flag stop for the Mountaineer). Reviewing the summer 1958 public timetable (I love public timetables; they’re full of interesting details, such as the fact that Capt. J. R. Ogilvy-Wills operated a CP recommended guest ranch called “The Meadows” at Fairmount Hot Springs, and that CP found it worthwhile to include the following note in the timetable: “Rock Ballast - Many of the more important lines of the Canadian Pacific are completely rock ballasted, as follows- From Montreal to Quebec City, Megantic, Ottawa and Windsor, from Ottawa to Bedell and Chalk River, from Toronto to Romford and from North Bay to west of Chapleau. Further west, rock ballasting extends from Fort William to Winnipeg and from Ruby Creek to Vancouver, a total of 2,944 miles.” These leads to several interesting questions: if not ballasted with rock, what was the track ballasted with, and did the CP not consider the mainline through the Rockies and across most of BC to be one if it’s “more important lines”?)  reveals some interesting data:

Eastbound 14 met westbound 7 at Field (11:40 am), westbound 5 met eastbound 8 at Golden (1:35pm), and eastbound 6 met westbound 1 at Field (4:08 pm).

Eastbound 2 passes westbound 13, 7, and 5 at the 5 lonely sidings in the 35 miles between Golden and Field.

This should yield some interesting operations! Now I just need to figure out which trains to include (note: my layout is point to point with no turning loops, so each train can only appear once during an operating session. A limit I know, but a space choice I made.

Consists are also from the public timetable, which includes details of the equipment on each train, up to a point. It may say for example “12 sec., 1 DR”, so you know it’s a heavyweight 12 - 1, but not which of several series of 12 - 1’s possible. If anybody has a source for consists with car names and numbers…

The Canadian is Rapido set “A” with an extra Manor from set “B”, a pair of U series tourist sleeper, and less one of the 2 coaches. Arranged baggage, tourist, tourist, Skyline dome, coach, Manor, Manor, Chateau, dining car, Manor, Chateau, dome obs. (10 cars set, less 1, plus 3, for 12 cars)

The Dominion from front to rear is Budd (all Budds from set “B”) baggage, Budd coach, Budd Skyline dome, 2 heavyweight tourist sleepers, R series 8 sec., DR, 2 cpts. heavyweight sleeper, Budd dining car, heavyweight 12 - 1 (probably a T series), another R series, Budd Manor, Budd Chateau, Budd dome obs. I may add a Budd coach (I have 2 spares) and delete the second R series sleeper (which I don’t have anyway, but have always wanted to do in resin). I’ll also need to build a T series sleeper.

The Mountaineer is an interesting, colourful train. Most of the train would consist of a wide variety of American road sleepers, many in tourist charter service. My train will have a 4400 series through baggage at the front. These cars were built as ‘silk cars’, basically an express boxcar used in dedicated silk train service. When this service died out they were modified with a baggage car type door and used as baggage cars but distinct with their obvious 40 foot boxcar heritage. This will be followed by a 2200 series ‘curved side’ coach, a Grove series 10 - 5 ‘curved side’ sleeping car, 3 foreign road sleepers, an A series CP dining car, 3 more foreign road sleepers, a Cape series obs. lounge sleeper, and a open observation car.

Lastly, 5 and 6 will have a brace of express reefers at the front (I have a thing for express reefers), including wood cars I have in hand but also 8 hatch overhead ice bunker cars I’m currently working on, a 60 foot wood baggage/express, a heavyweight baggage express, 2 ‘curved side’ RPO/express cars, 4 ‘curved side’ baggage/express cars, and a single coach bringing up the markers. I’ll use a 2200 coach I have in hand in place of “N.A.C.” (not air conditioned) car the timetable specifies (a definite upgrade in service). I may also add or subtract as required express reefers in Golden to simulate fruit loads and empties destined to/from the fruit growing area in Creston BC. These cars would be coming up the Windemere Sub. to Golden for movement east or west. I the real world this would be unlikely as Creston ( and Okanagan) fruit would likely head west on the famous Kettle Valley or east on the Crowsnest route. But it’s my universe.

I apologize for the long winded post, but I find it helpful to turn thoughts into words.

Geoff what a fantastic description of the trains. I think we need to see pictures of these consists! 

Craig

[CNR5529]

I spent the weekend filling out the consists of my passenger fleet. My Rapido Canadians (2 sets) have been looking pretty since they arrived, but it was time to work out the details.
(...)

If anybody has a source for consists with car names and numbers…
(...)

Geoff, sounds like you are well on your way to creating some fantastic prototype inspired consists and ops! As for specific consists, there is a whole collection of information on the passconsist IO group which was saved from the older Yahoo group. These were originally posted by Fred Shannon, then reuploaded by Stephen Lowens, and are broken down into two large groups of files: Blast from the past - CP arrivals into Vancouver B.C. 1955, and Blast from the Past - CP consists at various locations between 1927 and 1971 (the 1958 data seems to be heavily focused on Moose Jaw and Medicine Hat...). Each file shows the consists on that day for all the trains you are after, with locomotive numbers, car numbers/names, car types, section numbers, etc.

One thing that quickly becomes apparent is that these trains changed a lot from day to day. Even on the Canadian, the number of each car type and general placement in the train would change somewhat. Apparently anything with wheels could be pressed into service in a pinch on the lesser trains, particularly in the busy summer months.

Here are two excerpts for train 13, The Mountaineer, just to give you a taste of what you will find in these files. One consist is arriving in Vancouver in July of 1955, the other is going through Moose Jaw in July of 1958. Let me know if you can't access this group, I can send the files to you offline...:

Train No.13 THE MOUNTAINEER Westbound Arrives O.T. (11 Cars)
DE 8555 H-16-44 (Dual Service)
DE 8462 RS-10 (Dual Service)
DE 8409 GP-7 (Frt Service)
BE 4018 60'Wooden Express Baggage (SU)
EX 5719 Wooden Express 4 hatch Ice Refer (SU)
EX 5732 Wooden Express 4 hatch Ice Refer (SU)
BE 4333 73'Baggage Express arched roof (HW)
CH 2261 68 Seat First Class Coach (CS)
CT Rancher 8-1-2 Section/DRoom/Compartment Sleeper (HW)
CT Glencairn 10 Compartment Sleeper (HW)
RM Ash Grove 10-5 Roomette/Bedroom Sleeper (CS)
DI Wolvesey 36 Seat Dining Car (HW)
PO Cape Bauld 4-1 Sleeper, 17 Seat Lounge, 8 Seat Solarium Observation (HW)
MO 7912 64 seat Wooden Open Mountain Observation (WU)

Train No.13, The Mountaineer ( 14 cars) at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. On Time.
CP 4038, FP-7a duel service Passenger and Freight
CP 8508, GP-9r duel service Passenger and Freight
CP 3631 curved side Mail/Express (LW),
Pullman Fir Park 6-4-4 Sleeper (DH) to Banff (HW),
CP 2250 curved side Coach (LW),
CP 2246 curved side Coach (LW),
CP 2258 curved side Coach (LW),
CP Renown 8-1-2 sleeper (HW),
CP Orange Grove curved side 10-5 sleeper (LW),
CP Winchester 36 seat Dining car (HW),
CP 6591 Solarium Cafe-Parlor car 8 seat solarium, 13 seat 2 sofa lounge, 18 seat dining room (HW),
CP Cape Mudge 4-1 Buffe t-Sleeper-Solarium, 8 seat solarium, 13 seat 2 sofa observation lounge (HW),
CP Glenellah 10 compartment Sleeper (HW),
Pullman Fir Lake 6-4-4 Sleeper (HW),
Pullman Glen Blair 6-3 Sleeper (HW),
Pullman General A. H. Terry 8-1-2 ? Sleeper (HW)

I’ll also need to build a T series sleeper.

I built my N, S and T sleepers from Rivarrossi 12-1 sleepers, adding rooftop AC ducts and vents, and cutting out the larger window openings on the T class. A 8-4 V sleeper was also built from a modified 12-1. 14 section G class tourist sleepers and 10 compartment Glen sleepers were all built from Rivarrossi coaches, by blanking out or moving windows and again adding some extra details as appropriate. This was all heavily inspired by the work of Mr Puddington.

(...) the second R series sleeper (which I don’t have anyway, but have always wanted to do in resin).

Yes please! Would you consider heavyweight parlours, and a heavyweight smoker (combine to the non CPR folks) or baggage/dorm as well? 

Kind regards,
Fredrick

[Angus Shops]

Thanks Fredrick,
I (re)found this item in CPTracks that lists a whole whack of train consists, including all the trains of interest. It shows the summer ‘58 Dominion consist for example.

https://www.cptracks.ca/data/documents/CPR%20Transcontinental%20Consists-3.pdf

Geoff

[CNR5529]

Thanks Fredrick,
I (re)found this item in CPTracks that lists a whole whack of train consists, including all the trains of interest. It shows the summer ‘58 Dominion consist for example.

https://www.cptracks.ca/data/documents/CPR%20Transcontinental%20Consists-3.pdf

Geoff

Yup, that's another really good source of information, and you can filter out cars based on where in the country you are modeling (so my Dominion in MTL would look quite different from yours in Field). The only detail that's really missing there is actual car names and numbers, or unique swap outs and head end cars, but you can still build interesting and accurate consists based on that document.

[OldEastRR]

What are the designations "WU", "SU", and "CS"?

[CNR5529]

What are the designations "WU", "SU", and "CS"?

WU - Wood underframe, SU - wood car with steel underframe, CS - curve side (many CPR light weight cars had a horseshoe profile). Other designations in those consist files include SS - stainless steel, SSC - stainless steel clad, SC-SU - Steel clad steel underframe.

[Angus Shops]

After thinking it over, I’ve decided to (1) build a T series sleeper in the same manner as CNR5529 did, that is kitbash a Rivarossi 12-1, and (2) forgo the urge to resin cast an R series and instead do the same as I did on my existing R car, also rebuilt from a RR 12-1.

A reasonably close T series car can be had by simply removing the narrow window bar between the paired windows in the 12 sections and the drawing room. I’d also add a complete selection of underbody bits, vestibule steps, car diaphragms, and roof details. I COULD also mess around with some of the other car window for better proto fidelity; the CP cars had 3 windows on the aisle side on the DR end of the car compared to 2 on the RR car, for example.

I had a good look at my existing R sleeper to try to figure out/remember how I put that one together (20 years ago or more). If I recall that I carved out the windows from the 12-1 and inserted window opening cut from the body of old Atlas smoothside 10-6 sleeper bodies (not the window ‘glass’, but the window opening cut from the car body with their cast on ‘window gaskets’ and curved corners). I’m pretty sure this is how I dealt with the 12 ‘full size’ windows, but the smaller windows are a bit of a mystery. I did it this way because the ‘window gaskets’ were fairly easy to paint silver for the sealed unit window look. In any event a bunch of windows need to be rearranged to turn a 12-1 into an 8-1-2. The problem with this approach is finding some old Atlas 10-6’s, my LHS didn’t have any.

There are probably more ‘modern’ ways of doing this, but I still have 3 RR 12-1’s in hand. Sealed unit windows with silver frames could come from Rapido cars, but that would mean sacrificing one of my Panorama line cars, most of which were gift to me from Mike McGrattan, so those are sacrosanct. Still leaves the problem of the smaller windows. You could also start with a MT 12-1-2 to reduce the amount of bodywork for the windows, but the roof is all wrong.

Or I could just be satisfied with the one I have.

And then there are the 2 RR 12-1’s I have standing in for tourist sleepers, which are 14 section cars (14-0?) cars…

[CNR5529]

Here are a few (crappy cellphone) in-progress shots of a number of cars I completed a while back, requiring only minor surgery to RR 12-1 and coach cars. From top to bottom, N series 12-1 sleeping car, V series 8-4 sleeping car, two G series 14 section tourist cars, and a modernized Glen series 10 comp sleeping car. If I remember well, 10 thou styrene sheet was used to blank out and reshape windows. I built my S sleeping car similarly to the N car, with only roof details changing. The T sleeper got the larger double windows like the Glen car. As you mentioned, CPR 12-1s had three aisle side windows at the DR end, but I didn't bother changing this.

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Finished product:

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Gadsby and Gander, 14 section tourist sleeping cars

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Netley, Spuzzum and Tracy, 12-1 sleeping cars

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Victoria, 8-4 sleeping car

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Glenwood, 10 compartment sleeping car, compartment side

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Glenwood, 10 compartment sleeping car, aisle side

Still need to detail the undersides and interiors a bit more, at the very least add curtains and frosted glass as appropriate...