Setting up an Ntrack layout in an unheated garage. Good idea or not.

[bman]

So after a 25 year run our club's lease for the space we have is not being renewed.  The new building owners have plans for the basement of the building. The good news is is our county fairgrounds has a vacant building they don't use and their grounds maintenence manager is an N scale modeler. Long story short the building at present is a stand alone unheated wood framed metal sided building. A 30X120 foot one though 3 times the space we are leaving. So my question for those of you that have, or had, a layout in an unheated garage is what can we expect from these wild Ohio temperature swings before we are able to insulate and do something for heating and cooling. Is it worth it to set up our traveling Ntrack layout for our members to run on during the improvement phase? We've set it up in the summer for a week in similar building at other fairs in the past and survived. I was thinking we could look into those portable propane fired eating units we used during my time as a concrete plant manager to keep the batch plant from freezing in the winter only firing them up when we are at the building. Or would it be best to wait until the improvements are finished. Assuming we can come to terms with the fairgrounds.

Thanks for any thoughts or advice you folks have. I've been the club president for a month and this happens. Not a good start. But an opportunity to excell am I right?

[BruceStikkers]

I live about 120 miles straight south of Chicago, so my observations are based on this area only. We have a club with an N-scale modular layout that we keep in a trailer between shows. We have been pleasantly surprised that we have no shrink expand problems even though the trailer sits outside.

I have 2 modules 2' x 4' that make a city scene that I have kept in my unheated garage between shows so I can operate it as a shelf layout. I have had no shrink/expand problems although I learned early on that when the garage door is open that dirt accumulation is a real issue. My solution was to cover the layout with plastic between operating times to keep it clean. That has worked well for me. I use a small electric heater to knock the chill off in cold weather. I have worked in agriculture my whole life and think the dirt control issue would be one you would need to address.

Bruce Stikkers
St. Joseph, IL

[randgust]

Every material expands and contracts due to temperature.  And wood changes dimensions over humidity.   Ohio gets hot, humid, and cold.

After living in a basement in PA when I was a kid, compared to a humidity controlled and dust filtered basement train room I have now, no comparison.   It drove me nuts.

I'd never do it.   Even with what I've got there's a noticeable difference in rail expansion and contraction, as well as the masonite backdrops moving, between winter and summer, and that's over a 20% difference in humidity (maxes out a 70%, but will run 50% in the winter) and really no change in temperature at all to speak of.  And all my benchwork wood is painted.   In my world, it's still that much of a difference in humidity I notice winter to summer, and I run a dehumidifier in the summer in a dedicated room with a ceiling, paneling, etc.

I even notice it in Ttrak to the point that when I'm transporting modules I keep them out of the humidity as long as I can for the Altoona show.  I notice it immediately on rail oxidation.

[wm3798]

There are a few things to consider.
What is the rent for the proposed new space?
Are the improvements needed the responsibility of the fairgrounds, or the tenant?
How long will the club be in unconditioned space until the improvements are installed?
Is the club planning public open houses during potentially uncomfortable weather (cold winters, muggy summers) and do you have a plan to stave off complaints in the meantime?

With the layout being modular, expansion/contraction issues should be fairly minor, since every module connection is an expansion joint.  I'd be more concerned about potential for moisture problems leading to mold or material damage to the scenery and details.  Likewise, extreme cold tends to make styrene brittle, so that might be a thing.

If the Fairgrounds building is offered at little or no rent in exchange for the Club's support of fairgrounds activities, (this is the relationship enjoyed by the Maryland and West Virginia club at the Allegany County Fairgrounds in Cumberland) then you could muster the budget to make the improvements for your own benefit.  If the Fairgrounds plans to to the upfit and charge a higher commensurate rent, then that's probably a reasonable trade off, as well.  But, if they want to charge full freight rent, and saddle you with the insulation job, I'd keep looking.

In Cumberland, the club participates in setting up and cleaning up things for the County Fair, music festivals, and other major events that take place, sort of indentured servitude in exchange for the favorable conditions of their presence there.  They are also required to be open and available for the public during those events.  This works out great because the events draw thousands to the fairgrounds, and the club benefits from the traffic.  As long as there's enough members to fold up chairs and push brooms as well as man the layouts, everything works to the benefit of both tenant and landlord.

Short term, you could frame up a controlled space within the larger building that could function as a temporary, but conditioned play space that provides for some of the modules to be set up, and the rest stored securely while the powers that be sort out what happens with the rest of the building.  This could be accomplished by partitioning off a part of the building that can be insulated and conditioned, then expand as the rest of the building gets done, or by simply hauling in one of those portable sheds, if the goal is simply to store the layout until the building is fitted out.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
Lee

[basementcalling]

South Hampton Roads Ntrak - no longer with us BTW - used to be upstairs in two rooms in a neighborhood church in Norfolk, VA. The church had baseboard heat, which was not on in our rooms until the club "keymaster" arrived to unlock the doors and let us in. First thing we did was turn on the heat. Although our climate doesn't have Midwest style temperature swings, and the church had brick and concrete exterior walls, we did have expansion issues with the "club layout" set of modules we kept up for people to run trains on while we were meeting on Tuesdays. Once temps stabilized, we learned to check the rails for kinks and new curves after reassembling the layout after a show.

The bigger issue was that the warm up time cut into working time with paints and plaster on a Tuesday night. Room temps might have fluxuated 15-20 degrees, but trying to get paint to cure, or flow through an airbrush at 55 is different than at 70 degrees. Hydrocal setting times were also impacted. 30 x 120 is a large space to heat up quickly in winter in a non insulated building. Summer humidity might be even more of a challenge for both modules and members. No one likes to sweat all over the trains while working on them.

I've also seen Ntrak clubs set up in a venue, and if the modules were fresh from an unheated trailer in the winter, we'd sometimes come back to kinky trackwork as the heat in the hall caused expansion of rail and module frames. Sometimes it was easier to wait to add the connecting tracks the morning of the show on a layout after everything adjusted to the new temperature.

Your biggest issue might be member comfort in the building, as too cold or too hot of a room can cut the time folks are willing to spend at the club, or to even show up at all.

[thomasjmdavis]

My recommendation, as someone who has built a few layouts and been on remodeling crews, plus doing extensive work on homes and buildings I've owned...

The work will go a heck of a lot faster if there is not a layout in the room getting in the way.  And, frankly, with insulation work going on, I wouldn't want my layout anywhere close- you'll be dealing with bits of insulation and dust for the next century.  I would get that done before setting up the layout.  A big empty pole barn doesn't take long with a good crew.

Getting a heating contractor in will be easier this time of year than in the fall, but seldom takes more than a few weeks start to finish for a simple job like dropping in a couple of ceiling hung space heaters.  If you're planning to rip up the concrete and install in the floor heating... it will be longer.   My guess would be that best would be to use whatever fuel the county uses to heat other buildings- regardless of who pays for it, the county will get a much better price for fuel and utilities than you will. 

Two of my layouts (#4 and # 5)  were in less than ideal circumstances (one in an insulated but sporadically heated area of a pole barn, the other on an enclosed back porch that got enough heat to keep from freezing, but had a 50 degree temperature variance over the course of a year).  My experience was better than I expected.  Both layouts were modular, and held up pretty well in terms of expansion and contraction- occasional issues with track joints and kinks. So, I would anticipate that N track modules would hold up better than a built into the wall layout, as long as you check joints at the module ends for expansion/contraction and are willing to do some track maintenance here and there.  My worst issues were in an insulated basement , with reasonable temp control (layout #6)- but due to severe outdoor temps dropped to about 50 one winter, and... some track 'expanded' when it warmed back up again- a long straightaway turned into a snake of track.

Don't neglect cooling/ventilation in the summer.  I've had as many problems with 90+F and humid as with cold, on my various layouts.

A fairgrounds location sounds ideal for a club- you can become a permanent fixture in the community.  Opportunity for holiday train shows. Everyone knows where it is.  Plenty of parking.  So, go for it.  But get the place insulated and heated, then worry about running trains.

[bman]

all good info thanks folks.  We are meeting at the facility this Friday and we'll know more on what we can and cannot do as far as updates. 

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If you're curious about temperature swings you might be able to leave one of these in the space for a bit to see how bad it actually gets:
https://www.homedepot.com/pep/ThermoPro-Bluetooth-Hygrometer-Thermometer-260FT-Wireless-Remote-Temperature-and-Humidity-Monitor-TP359W/322083448?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&fp=ggl&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D28I-028_026_PATIO_FURN-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-PMAX_SHP_JControl24&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D28I-028_026_PATIO_FURN-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-PMAX_SHP_JControl24-20409861021--&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20278983498&gbraid=0AAAAADq61Ud6Hp7N3m0Jf-g6RF2Fv0zVG&gclid=CjwKCAiAkbbMBhB2EiwANbxtbbEYU6GyV3KnrYaLwDgHtx2CRKD6J1QjN46FY5BQgUiz0QvxyTSIeRoCwtIQAvD_BwE