NCE consisting issue with Digitrax decoders

[NYC54]

Hello... I have a different digitrax consisting issue. I thought I would post here rather than start a new post. Moderators if this needs moved please do so.

I just received 2 of the new Atlas nscale SD45 Silver Series loco's. When I ordered these I also ordered 2 Digitrax DN167n18 decoders, as I don't do sound.
The decoders installed just fine and I'm really pleased with how the loco's preform. The only changes I have programed in so far is the 3 digit address and lowered CV's 5 & 6 down to a respectable speed.
I also set momentum to 5 as all my other loco's are set at that setting. I used my Power cab on my separate programming track. I'm using an NCE SB5 with 3 Procab throttles.
However here is the problem I'm having. When I consist these 2 loco's together to break them in I can't get them to move. All the lights work but no movement.
The loco's run fine by themselves when I use a separate throttle for each loco but when consisted it's a no go. I have reset the decoders (CV8 to8) but still a no go.
Is there a CV setting I'm missing? I haven't tried to consist either of these into a consists with my other loco's yet. It got late & I gave up for the day. I have JMRI but not that familiar with it.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Maletrain]

NYC54, You really should have started another thread, because your problem has no relationship to the OP's problem that is the subject of this thread.

That said, I suspect your problem is with your NCE equipment usage. 

If you programmed your 2 locos into a consist with your NCE Power Cab, the Power Cab assigned a consist address in CV19, but also an alias for that consist number in your Power Cab memory, so that you can address your consist with the 4-digit address of your lead loco for that consist when using the Power Cab.  However, when you put the consisted locos on your layout with a different command station, your SB5, it doesn't have the info about the consist address alias, so it is just sending commands to the 4-digit addresses.  The locos will respond to the 4 digit address function commands such as lights, but not speed or direction commands, because the decoders have non-zero values in their CV19s.  They will only respond to the direction commands sent to the consist address, which is a short address somewhere from 1 through 127. 

Try putting one of those consisted locos on the programming track and read its CV19 value with your Power Cab.  Then, put it back on the layout tracks and send speed and direction commands to the short address you found in CV19.  That should make your locos move.

With NCE command stations, some of the consisting info is in the command station, in addition to what is in the decoders.  To take an NCE consist to a different layout, you will need to know the consist address that the NCE command station wrote into the decoders' CV19s.  By using that short address, you can run the consist on any other layout, including Digitrax layouts.  But, to avoid problems, you need to remember that you can only break that consist properly with the NCE command station you used to make it, and you need to make sure that all of the locos in the consist are on the track when you break the consist.  Otherwise, you will end up with some locos that still have their CV19s set, but even the command station that originally made the consist will not "know" that the locos that were not on the track when the consist was broken still have their CV19s set. 

Moderators, if you want to move these last 2 posts to a different thread, I suggest a title that includes "NCE consisting" so that others will know what it is about.

[NYC54]

Maletrain... thanks for the reply. However I only used my Powercab for the initial loco address & adjustment of CV's 5&6. The consist was made on the main using my Procabs.
I don't make up consists on my programming track, so the Powercab is not used for consist making. I make up & clear consists on the main all the time with no problems
but this is the 1st time I have run into this issue. So I don't think it's an NCE issue.

My NCE Procabs (and I have tried 2 different procabs) want to assign these 2 loco's with a consist #122. Loco # are 406 & 408 and when I punch in Select Loco either 406 or 408 my Procab lists (CON 406 or 408) so I know the consists is saved on my SB5. But all I get is lighting but no movement. I cleared consist #122  & verified via my powercab programming track that CV19 was 0 on both loco's. This was when I reset both locos via CV8 to factory settings. I then just reprogramed the loco #'s 406 & 408 with the Powercab and tried again to consists on the main and even tried to give it a direct consist # of 406 and still got the same results.
 
Tomorrow I will try to add one of these loco's to one of my other previous made consist and see if I get anywhere with that.

[bbussey]

I had a similar issue trying to consist a pair of InterMountain FT sets. Couldn’t get the four to run together, even though each A/B set would run as a consist without issue. The headlights worked fine, but they would barely move no matter how high the throttle. I originally had used the drop in Digitrax boards, and ended up swapping in LokPilot decoders which have no problem consisting with my NCE system. I have three consists with four ESU decoders, the FT consist with LokPilots and two Alco FA/B/B/A consists with LokSound decoders, and all run perfectly.

[Maletrain]

It is not clear to me how you would "give it a direct consist # of 406", since the consist number must be a short address between 1 and 127.  That still suggests that your problem may be in how you are doing things with the NCE equipment.

When the consist was showing as #122 on your Pro Cabs, did you try running the consist by using short address 122 on a Pro Cab?  That would have told us if the problem is in the command station or the decoders.   If that works, then the problem is something to do with how the command station is working - but if it doesn't work, then it indicates some problem in the decoders.  Please remember that NCE can use both short and long addresses between 1 and 127, and that those are different addresses.  If the decoder is given an active long address of, say, 122, it will not respond to short address 122 - and vice versa.

On the other hand, some decoders have different settings for when they are in consists, including things like turning off BEMF, lowering top speeds, etc.  But, those "features" are peculiar to vendor, and even decoder version, of specific decoders.  Looking at the Digitrax manual for your decoder version did not help me, but Digitrax is notorious for poorly documenting such things in its manuals.

IF, and that is a big "if", your problem is with those particular decoder versions, you would probably get better help from digitrax-users@groups.io.  To join that group, send an e-mail to Digitrax-Users+subscribe@groups.io .

[NYC54]

Thanks Maletrain. I have joined that group and posted a message but since I'm new there I'm awaiting moderator approval before my message will be posted.

[Maletrain]

One thing to clear up: 

You originally posted that both locos were running fine on their long addresses, and you only had the problem when they were consisted with the NCE default consisting process (which changes the decoder CV19s).

But, in your next reply, you posted that you had tried a "direct consist # of 406" and still had the "same problem" with the locos. 

I am guessing that by "direct consist", you mean that you programmed both locos to the same long address, #406, and activated that, after having properly broken the NCE consist they were in.  If that is what you meant, then there has been a change in the way the locos respond to a long address when not in a consist. 

You do say that you did decoder resets between those 2 situations, so that may, or may not be the reason for the difference.

Anyway, can you verify that #406 has stopped working when not in an NCE consist?  And that #408 also does not work now that its long address has been changed to 406? 

If that is what is really happening, it still leaves some possibility of an NCE problem.  It might provide some additional info if you check with your Power Cab to see (1) if the CV19s are now zeros in those 2 decoders, (2) that their long addresses (whatever they are, now) are "activated" instead of their short addresses, and, finally (3) that they still do not work when used on the  track you use for programming with the Power Cab when the Power Cab is in regular DCC command station mode instead of any programming mode.

[NYC54]

Maletrain... the problem has been solved. All it took was to set CV57 (Back EMF)to a value of 102. CV57 was 006 by default. Both loco's consist fine on NCE consists # 122 and I can switch between 406 & 408 without any problems. When I mentioned that I tried a direct consists of 406 I meant that I typed 406 in over the 122 that came up on the screen. Since that didn't work I cleared that consist in my ProCabs.

To answer your other question ... I programed both loco's with the 406 address (didn't try to setup a consist) so they both had the same address and they ran great but I knew it still wasn't correct.
It did allow me to run them for a couple of hours today letting me do some breaking them in.

Thanks again for the suggestion of joining that Digitrax IO group as someone suggested that Back EMF was causing the problem. A quick Google search came up with setting CV57 to 102.

[Maletrain]

Good to hear that you have a solution.

The odd thing about Digitrax using CV57 for turning BEMF off when in a decoder-based consist is that doing so should not completely stop the locos from moving.  It should act like other loco decoders do with BEMF turned off - taking a higher throttle position to get it moving and lagging more on grades - but still able to move if you turn up the throttle far enough.  So, I am suspecting that the Digitrax programming is really doing more than they claim with that CV setting in their decoders.