TheRailwire
General Discussion => Layout Engineering Reports => Topic started by: davefoxx on October 20, 2010, 07:06:47 PM
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As many of you know, I'm presently without a reasonably-sized layout. But this is not necessarily the end of the world, because this creates sort of a clean slate for me. I have discussed with my wife my desire to build a small layout (another hollow core door layout or perhaps oNeTrak modules). Here's the dilemma: Do I continue to build something to use my C&O, RF&P, SCL, or Seaboard System rolling stock and equipment, or do I take the opportunity to move on to something fresh and new. I'm having evil thoughts about modeling something like the Aberdeen & Rockfish RR, a short line in the sandhills of southeastern North Carolina.
The pros:
1) The Aberdeen & Rockfish has not been modeled to death.
2) Atlas has offered two GP38s and a GP7 in A&R paint. I'm hopeful that I can locate these models, as they were produced only within the last two to three years.
(http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/NLocomotives/ngp79/0707/48084_TQ.jpg)
(http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/NLocomotives/ngp3840/0708/53978_TQ.jpg)
I love the paint scheme on those locos, but I like these A&R gons, which are available from Atlas, too:
(http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/NFreightCars/nevansgondola/45502.jpg)
All images from Atlas's website
3) By picking a short line, I can more likely build a small, but more plausible, layout than trying to model a double track racetrack like the RF&P or SBD. This is why I ended up with the single-track C&O Piedmont Sub on the last layout.
4) By picking a short line, this would help me to continue to avoid the dangers of impulse buying things that I do not need.
5) This is my favorite: The A&R used the same locomotives (well, at least one of the GP38s and the GP7 that Atlas has produced) from the 1960s to the present, so (with the exception of having to ignore the lack of ditch lights if I model the present day), I can change out the rolling stock and model different eras a la Dave Vollmer, except I can use the same locomotives. This could save me a ton of cash, and I could easily offset the purchase of the new locomotives by selling some of my existing inventory (e.g., three C&O SD35s that I rarely run).
6) I love many of the southeastern roads, and the A&R interchanged with several over the years. My SBD equipment could survive, for example. The RF&P? Well, not likely to be seen on a North Carolina backwoods road, but I have no interest in parting with my RF&P equipment, whether I actively model the RF&P or not. I'm okay with them only coming out now and then to stretch their legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll keep the Juice Train! ;)
7) I can even buy a few modern cars and run modern trains. Rumor has it that a large ethanol plant (grain trains) is being built on the prototype A&R.
8] The opportunity to build a plausible modest-sized layout that would allow me to focus on attention to detail, e.g., perhaps even handlaid code 40 track.
The cons:
1) What if I change my mind and want anything I sell back again? I've made that mistake before, but, thankfully, it wasn't a huge loss. And thinking about it, as I typed the pros above, I can keep a lot of my rolling stock (e.g., SCL and SBD) and either plausibly use it in interchange or swap out the shells on other roads for shells with more appropriate paint schemes. I'll check the Atlas store or eBay for those. That way, I could always swap back, if I'm getting that C&O itch again.
2) No passenger trains, unless I run a foobie excursion train.
3) No TOFC or unit coal trains.
4) No mountain railroading, although there is a 2.5% grade in one stretch of the road.
5) Will I lose interest in only having three locomotives on the modeled road? I hope that I can come to terms with my need for something new and fresh from time to time. Heck, Allen McClelland ran his V&O locos and rolling stock for decades!
6) No caboose available- not even a foobie (all the more reason to model the 1980s to present, but I prefer a caboose to punctuate the end of the train).
So, what does everyone think? Should I seek counseling for my continuing inability to settle on one prototype road?
Thanks in advance,
Dave Foxx
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(http://www.wrightangle.com/food/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/waffles1.jpg)
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Thanks, Dave, but, actually, I prefer the photo of the "The Waffler." ;D
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/TheWaffler.jpg)
In my defense, I have actually built a layout for the C&O stuff I own, and it has been several years since I considered building something completely different. I like to think that I'm also taking advantage of a clean slate.
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OK, serious time now. I like it! I miss the North Carolina railroading scene. If I had to start over, it would be very tempting to model the Durham and Southern through Apex, NC. And, as you've mentioned, the area hasn't changed much in 50 years such that you could run almost any era you desire.
I would love to see you do another layout. HCD layouts are fun, but can also be limited, as you already know. Do you have an idea of what sort of space you'll have? HCDs are nice in that they can adapt to almost any space if you move.
I think the A&R would be a very neat little line to model, for a ton of reasons. But the best reason is what you've pointed out. It's unique!
Of course, by not modeling CR, you'll have to buy beer for the rest of us at The Hard Hat at next year's CHRS Rail-B-Q...!
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I think Athearn did A&R 50' outside braced boxcars also...
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Another thought, too... Life's too damn short for regrets. If you want to model more than one line at once, do it! You have the advantage of modeling a region where the scenery is pretty generic... Piney, rolling hills could be anywhere from Virginia to Georgia. One day you could be A&R, the next SOU... and then maybe ACL or SAL. Or NS, or CSX, or D&S, etc.
My father had similar plans in HO to have a 4x8 with generic tree-covered hills. He would build stations and other railroad buildings in different paint schemes for Reading, DL&W, or NYO&W, and just swap out those buildings with the trains to convert the whole layout. I think it's a great way to model several favorite roads in a finite space.
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Dave,
Aside from the obvious appeal of modeling a shortline that few of us know about, I think you can end up keeping most of your existing rolling stock (As you mentioned) as well as your locomotive fleet - there need to be some locos for interchange service if nothing else.
And the chance to research something different can be appealing.
that said, what is your modeling goal for the next 5 years? Do you want to build another door to test new techniques? Do you want to do a dogbone shelf layout like Ed so you can railfan your collection? Do you want an industrial switching layout, or any kind of switching layout? What's next on your modeling punch list?
I think that if you answer these questions, your path will become clear. And we'll probably find temporary "permanent" homes for your stuff in the Railwire family if you do a massive disvestiture.
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OK, serious time now. I like it! I miss the North Carolina railroading scene. If I had to start over, it would be very tempting to model the Durham and Southern through Apex, NC. And, as you've mentioned, the area hasn't changed much in 50 years such that you could run almost any era you desire.
I would love to see you do another layout. HCD layouts are fun, but can also be limited, as you already know. Do you have an idea of what sort of space you'll have? HCDs are nice in that they can adapt to almost any space if you move.
I think the A&R would be a very neat little line to model, for a ton of reasons. But the best reason is what you've pointed out. It's unique!
Of course, by not modeling CR, you'll have to buy beer for the rest of us at The Hard Hat at next year's CHRS Rail-B-Q...!
The Durham & Southern is another great Carolina short line. I also have to admit that I dabbled in the Winston-Salem SouthBound Ry. in HO scale in the early 1990s when I lived in Winston-Salem, but that road is limited to only a very short period of only four locos decorated for that road and those GP9s are not likely to ever be produced in N scale.
As for a HCD, I think in my case, it will work out better for now. A shelf-style layout just isn't practical in the basement of our townhome. And, I know now, after giving up the Virginia Central, that a HCD-sized layout is more manageable for me. That, and I know what i can and cannot do on a HCD. I think a short line could work well, and I believe I usually do a reasonable job of avoiding spaghetti-bowl track plans. The A&R has a good bit of online industries, so a simple track plan with different types of customers could be developed but fun to operate. I think an out and back plan with provision for continuous operation would be what I'm after. The loop allows you to rack up miles between towns. There would be no more than two towns with a scenic divider.
Beer's on me? Okay, fair enough, although this is why I keep my CR GP40-2 and N5c cabin around. ;) But, okay, first round's on me at The Hard Hat next May. In fact, I look forward to it and the next CRHS Rail-B-Q.
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Dave,If I was to model a prototype short line it would be the Aberdeen & Rockfish hands down.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/index.html
Here's their customer list.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/html/customers.html
And map.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/SystemMap.gif
As far as your current collection..
Keep 'em.
As far as a caboose..Apparently in 1979 they was still using their caboose.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=119220&nseq=35
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=119219&nseq=36
You can always add freight cars.
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Dave,
Aside from the obvious appeal of modeling a shortline that few of us know about, I think you can end up keeping most of your existing rolling stock (As you mentioned) as well as your locomotive fleet - there need to be some locos for interchange service if nothing else.
And the chance to research something different can be appealing.
that said, what is your modeling goal for the next 5 years? Do you want to build another door to test new techniques? Do you want to do a dogbone shelf layout like Ed so you can railfan your collection? Do you want an industrial switching layout, or any kind of switching layout? What's next on your modeling punch list?
I think that if you answer these questions, your path will become clear. And we'll probably find temporary "permanent" homes for your stuff in the Railwire family if you do a massive disvestiture.
Hi, Philip,
Next five years? I really think a HCD could satisfy me for several years as the last HCD did. But, if I am more focused on this one and attempt to pull off a couple of layout design elements (LDEs) and plan for operation, I could be satisfied for even longer. An advantage of being an a$$hat (I hadn't joined here when I designed and built the Virginia Central) is that you all will be able to help me design a plan for operation. That's something that I will need help with. Oh, and yes, I want to have fun with switching on this layout.
The nice thing about having Railwire friends in only a few hours' drive is that I can run on their layouts, too. This is why I have a few CR and WM items. Those pieces are going nowhere, even if I sell off a significant portion of my inventory. That should ease my desire to run high speed and/or long freight trains.
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I think Athearn did A&R 50' outside braced boxcars also...
Thanks for the heads up, Lou! I found this. I'll check to see how bad a foobie it may be. If it's not too far off, I can accept it, as I don't tend to be a rivet counter. At least not for a box car that is on clearance at MBK!
(http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ATH-10925-2.jpg)
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Nah, you need to do Conrail.
(http://thecrhs.org/image/view/9515/_original)
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Dave,
I think you should box up your C&O/SCL stuff, hold onto it and build a small "side" collection. We're talking about collecting a few locomotives and maybe ~20-30 cars, thats not large enough of a justification to toss it all out (or sell it). That way when you finally have the oppurtunity to build a larger layout you can revisit your wildest RF&P/C&O/SCL dreams.
For myself I'm stock piling buildings, rolling stock and other assorted items for the future WM layout while the "BYR" kidney helps me work on scenery techniques. In the grand plan the BYR stuff will fit in with the WM. Think of it like Lee making a small LRV while waiting for the big Western Maryland Lines oppurtunity in the future!
The S.
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Dave,If I was to model a prototype short line it would be the Aberdeen & Rockfish hands down.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/index.html
Here's their customer list.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/html/customers.html
And map.
http://www.aberdeen-rockfish.com/SystemMap.gif
As far as your current collection..
Keep 'em.
As far as a caboose..Apparently in 1979 they was still using their caboose.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=119220&nseq=35
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=119219&nseq=36
You can always add freight cars.
Larry,
Great, great information. Soooooo much appreciated. That customer list is very informative. I'll get out my RR Atlas (which I may have loaned to someone- uh oh) to scope out LDEs. I may have to use Google maps, if I can't find my Atlas.
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Dave,
I think you should box up your C&O/SCL stuff, hold onto it and build a small "side" collection. We're talking about collecting a few locomotives and maybe ~20-30 cars, thats not large enough of a justification to toss it all out (or sell it). That way when you finally have the oppurtunity to build a larger layout you can revisit your wildest RF&P/C&O/SCL dreams.
For myself I'm stock piling buildings, rolling stock and other assorted items for the future WM layout while the "BYR" kidney helps me work on scenery techniques. In the grand plan the BYR stuff will fit in with the WM. Think of it like Lee making a small LRV while waiting for the big Western Maryland Lines oppurtunity in the future!
The S.
The S.,
You're right. I may sell off some of my lesser used items (e.g., the aforementioned C&O SD35s), but I can keep a large portion of my fleet, a good portion of which can plausibly be used from time to time in interchange. I also could part with certain other pieces, perhaps just enough to fund the purchase of the new locos and cars (this makes my wife much more amenable to my new proposal). With Timonium coming up and the Trading Post here, hopefully, I can recoup the costs of this new venture with minimal damage to the credit card.
You're dead on with the RF&P/C&O/SBD(SCL) idea, and I will not sell any RF&P or SBD/SCL rolling stock or locos at this time. I still would like to pull off a layout someday, centered on Doswell, Virginia and the C&O/RF&P interchange. But that would require a large layout to do it justice, because that would almost require two separate operating lines: 1) a single-track C&O line for switching interest (operations), and 2) a continuous-run RF&P double-tracked line. This is why it makes more sense to tackle a short line now, just as you are doing with the BYR.
Thanks,
The D.
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Do the A&R, on a door, and when you tire of it, just hope Brian's pickup is fixed... seriously, use the small layout format to do something small, like the A&R.
Keep the other stuff though. The juice will look good on the shelf I just corked in the basement.
And when you get bored with the A&R, you still have everything to pick back up.
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Another thought, too... Life's too damn short for regrets. If you want to model more than one line at once, do it! You have the advantage of modeling a region where the scenery is pretty generic... Piney, rolling hills could be anywhere from Virginia to Georgia. One day you could be A&R, the next SOU... and then maybe ACL or SAL. Or NS, or CSX, or D&S, etc.
I like Dave's idea. I just waffled myself, and am now looking at the CGW, Milwaukee and Soo (with some GN & C&NW thrown in for color and good measure). My last family reunion north of Milwaukee and all those cursed Modutrak pics and videos gave me the Midwest bug and I've been thinking about generic Midwestern scenes where I can either run all three (interchangeably); or in a scenario that includes junctions and trackage rights so all three operate simultaneously, in a meaningful way. Of course, the entrance of some Monon, M&StL, and Rock Island can't be ruled out as the bug gets worse... At least I'm sticking to the same era.
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2) No passenger trains, unless I run a foobie excursion train.
They had motor cars at one point. Dunno if that'd qualify as a passenger train for you though.
5) Will I lose interest in only having three locomotives on the modeled road? I hope that I can come to terms with my need for something new and fresh from time to time. Heck, Allen McClelland ran his V&O locos and rolling stock for decades!
They had an F3, GP18, and CF7 too, so you could have 5 or 6.
6) No caboose available- not even a foobie (all the more reason to model the 1980s to present, but I prefer a caboose to punctuate the end of the train).
Might be able to make a correct one.
Nah, you need to do Conrail.
Read pro Number 1
[snip]The pros:
1) The Aberdeen & Rockfish has not been modeled to death. [/snip]
like conrail ;D
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Some inspiration: AR 400 outside the shop,
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341974&nseq=0 (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341974&nseq=0)
-gfh
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As a fellow Waffler, I say do it. I took my 5 yrs to finally settle on one railroad as well as time period, and with me doing a proto-freelance of the PRR in modern times (PRR model to death, but not a modern one :P ) I could use basically anything out there, but I am sticking with a few locos (SD80MAC, SD70I/MAC), passenger trains (JR N'EX re-badged as a Pennsy train) and rolling stock to run a couple of well cars, some stuff to fullfill the need of Keystone Liberty Brewery, and a few other cars.
and In the meantime I will continue to acquire buildings, rolling stock and other stuff for the future bigger layout. In the meantime what I have and will be getting fits the bill for now.
CAROLINA BY-PRODUCTS Valley Proteins - animal fat producer
So thats what they call it now? I must be healthy as a horse after all the "proteins" I take in.
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Do the A&R, on a door, and when you tire of it, just hope Brian's pickup is fixed... seriously, use the small layout format to do something small, like the A&R.
Keep the other stuff though. The juice will look good on the shelf I just corked in the basement.
And when you get bored with the A&R, you still have everything to pick back up.
That's my thinking exactly, Ed. Smaller scale railroading should better fit a smaller layout. I'm thinking that I would pick a maximum of two LDEs, to have some switching opportunities but also to have some railfanning. I'm also hoping there's at least one good scenic element along the line that I can model. By not cramming so much on the door, though, the layout should seem more realistic and credible. This will be the first time that I have really made an attempt at modeling something that is not a Class 1 railroad. It should be fun to model a backwoods railroad: small rails, little ballast, rolling right-of-way profile, etc.
By the way, the Juice will look even better highballing and making all of your other trains get out of the way on the mainline. ;D
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I like Dave's idea. I just waffled myself, and am now looking at the CGW, Milwaukee and Soo (with some GN & C&NW thrown in for color and good measure). My last family reunion north of Milwaukee and all those cursed Modutrak pics and videos gave me the Midwest bug and I've been thinking about generic Midwestern scenes where I can either run all three (interchangeably); or in a scenario that includes junctions and trackage rights so all three operate simultaneously, in a meaningful way. Of course, the entrance of some Monon, M&StL, and Rock Island can't be ruled out as the bug gets worse... At least I'm sticking to the same era.
A clean slate and starting over can be very invigorating and exciting. I'm actually feeling more motivation to do some modeling than I have in a long time. I look forward to seeing progress on your granger layout.
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They had motor cars at one point. Dunno if that'd qualify as a passenger train for you though.
They had an F3, GP18, and CF7 too, so you could have 5 or 6.
6) No caboose available- not even a foobie (all the more reason to model the 1980s to present, but I prefer a caboose to punctuate the end of the train).
Might be able to make a correct one.
Read pro Number 1
like conrail ;D
They did have a motorcar. Thay called it a "jitney," I believe. But that would have been too long ago and out of the era that I would model.
Unfortunately, the F3 was traded in to EMD for the GP18, so it left the property in the 1960s. But I have plans for the GP18. I already own a LL GP18 (SCL), which I stuffed onto an Atlas frame. If I can find another shell, I could paint (or have someone else do it) up the A&R GP18, but still have my SCL shell, if needed later.
As for the caboose, the decals would be the largest problem, because I could live with a foobie for a while, or at least until I have the time to build something close to the prototype. Interestingly, the cabooses appear to be used for LCL, in addition to the crew's use, because they have a large door on the side.
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Some inspiration: AR 400 outside the shop,
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341974&nseq=0 (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341974&nseq=0)
-gfh
Gary,
Thanks! That's HAWT. In case you missed it, check out the sludge in the pit.
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Dave wrote: I may have to use Google maps, if I can't find my Atlas.
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Actually either Google or Bing maps will work.I highly recommend these maps over the Atlas.
As a suggestion use the "bird's eye view" and street level at various town locations.
The information you can pickup is priceless.
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So Dave, your out-and-back configuration for the Virginia layout was my inspiration to add a yard to the Juniata Division. Will you have room to do that again?
If you do, it might be worth adding that sweet brick A&R enginehouse. You could probably kitbash a close match pretty easily with the Walthers 2-stall enginehouse. I've found the Enola Diesel Shop adds a little bit of operating fun but a huge increase in visual interest. It also makes a great backdrop for roster shots.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-7fiN5heOQo/TIvuFYGxlDI/AAAAAAAAMG8/lbBl4HjUAqY/s640/IMG_3929.JPG)
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So Dave, your out-and-back configuration for the Virginia layout was my inspiration to add a yard to the Juniata Division. Will you have room to do that again?
If you do, it might be worth adding that sweet brick A&R enginehouse. You could probably kitbash a close match pretty easily with the Walthers 2-stall enginehouse. I've found the Enola Diesel Shop adds a little bit of operating fun but a huge increase in visual interest. It also makes a great backdrop for roster shots.
Wow. I'm flattered to have been of some inspiration to you and the Juniata Division. I won't have room right now, but I will plan for that addition. That yard I added to the Virginia Central exponentially added operating fun to that layout.
I would definitely want to add that enginehouse. I always enjoyed hanging around the RF&P's Bryan Park Terminal when I was in college to railfan the locomotives being serviced and hostled, and I really like how Enola Yard and the Diesel Shop came out on your layout.
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Dave wrote: I may have to use Google maps, if I can't find my Atlas.
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Actually either Google or Bing maps will work.I highly recommend these maps over the Atlas.
As a suggestion use the "bird's eye view" and street level at various town locations.
The information you can pickup is priceless.
This is true, Larry, and I will use them. The only problem is that they cannot go into the past to show trackage as it existed years ago. But, I don't know that this is a problem, as I haven't done any research on track plans yet. It may turn out that the industries have been there for a long time and that issue is moot. Thanks!
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Now I'm really excited for your layout too. Get building Dave!
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Thanks for the heads up, Lou! I found this. I'll check to see how bad a foobie it may be. If it's not too far off, I can accept it, as I don't tend to be a rivet counter. At least not for a box car that is on clearance at MBK!
(http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ATH-10925-2.jpg)
Only the vaguest stand-in, the prototype is built by Evans:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=ar1031&o=ar
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Only the vaguest stand-in, the prototype is built by Evans:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=ar1031&o=ar
That's okay. I got it on clearance from MBK for only $8.99! I can live with it for a while at that price. But, thanks for the link to the photo. At least I know that the paint is reasonably close enough that the car is a decent stand-in until something better and more accurate comes along.
Well, the one thing I've got going for me is that most people don't know a thing about the A&R, so they won't have a clue as to the accuracy of these models.
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Now I'm really excited for your layout too. Get building Dave!
I'm going to design the plan first before I start junking up the basement. But, that hopefully won't take too long, because I'm really excited to move forward.
Last night, I ordered the two A&R GP38s and a GP7 that I found online. I haven't heard from the dealers whether they actually have these in stock yet or if they have shipped. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I also ordered the two A&R gons and the boxcar from MBK. The gons were only $7.99 and the box car was only $8.99! Nice.
By the way, to pay homage to my old door layout, I also bought an Athearn 50' Berwick box car decorated for the "Virginia Central Ry." Perfect!
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Hey Dave,good luck on your new layout,I like shortlines also.
If you need to find a home for your SD35s,I'd be interested in at least one.
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Hey Dave,good luck on your new layout,I like shortlines also.
If you need to find a home for your SD35s,I'd be interested in at least one.
Hey, Carl!
Let me run over to my other house in the next few days, and I'll take an inventory of everything that I want to consider selling. You'll get dibs on at least one C&O SD35. I want to check, because I'm pretty sure it's missing a DCC decoder. I think I have saved some Atlas (non-DCC) boards, so I can put one of those back in to test and provide with the locomotive, if you want it. These locos are in excellent shape and do not have a lot of run time on them.
DFF
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Not to worry Dave, Carl doesn't use DCC. He's still running in the Stone Age.
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Dave,no decoder is fine as I have no DCC.So that works out perfectly.
And keep me in mind on some rolling stock also.Thanks
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Dave,
I believe that there is an article on the A&R in "Railroads You Can Model" by Mike Schaefer
http://www.amazon.com/Railroads-you-model-Schafer-Mike/dp/0890245266/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287682944&sr=1-1
I used to have a copy of this (years ago) but no clue where it went. The trackplans in these old Kalmbach series aren't quite up to modern standards, but the historical information is usually pretty well written. The photos tend to be a bit small, but the printing is done well.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes, Dave
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Dave,
I believe that there is an article on the A&R in "Railroads You Can Model" by Mike Schaefer
http://www.amazon.com/Railroads-you-model-Schafer-Mike/dp/0890245266/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287682944&sr=1-1
I used to have a copy of this (years ago) but no clue where it went. The trackplans in these old Kalmbach series aren't quite up to modern standards, but the historical information is usually pretty well written. The photos tend to be a bit small, but the printing is done well.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes, Dave
D'oh! I used to have that book years ago! Thanks for the heads-up, though. I'll be on the look out for a copy.
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Dave,no decoder is fine as I have no DCC.So that works out perfectly.
And keep me in mind on some rolling stock also.Thanks
Will do.
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Dave, I am a huge fan of this guy. You'll need one of those Randgust shell's though:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2196915
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I will get one of the A&R GP38s (#405) I ordered from BLW, but the other one was out of stock. Sure hope I get lucky with the GP7, which I had to order from another vendor (I haven't heard from them yet). I also received an email from MBK, and the A&R boxcar is also out of stock. I assume this means that the two gons are shipping. Will have to keep searching for the other GP38 (#400). Grr!
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Dave, I am a huge fan of this guy. You'll need one of those Randgust shell's though:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2196915
Brian,
What an awesome picture! That's the best-looking CF7 I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing!
Dave
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Your welcome. Its actually new to the A&R, it was in ratty Pee Dee River colors and just repainted this year, but its plausible for your time frame. Plus, I am a big fan of those things. Its like a GP30's half brother to me.
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Dave,
If you can find the shell, I've got undec 38s up for grabs.
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Dave,
If you can find the shell, I've got undec 38s up for grabs.
Thanks for the offer, Bryan. I was hoping to just find A&R shells at Atlas' store but struck out, because I wouldn't mind just swapping out the shells on my C&O GP38s. That would have saved me the cost of the frames, which I can recycle from the ones I already I own. In fact, one of my C&O GP9s was created that way. It had started life as Chessie System (C&O) GP7. That shell went to a good home.
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Caboose Hobbies' site lists the boxcar in stock.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?scales_name=N+Scale&roadnames_name=Aberdeen+%26+Rockfish&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&keyword2=&sku=&osCsid=cdbd17c57d7bf54aeff1c9a87b7035ae&maxrow=50&x=13&y=14 (http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?scales_name=N+Scale&roadnames_name=Aberdeen+%26+Rockfish&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&keyword2=&sku=&osCsid=cdbd17c57d7bf54aeff1c9a87b7035ae&maxrow=50&x=13&y=14)
And if you're desparate on the GP7
http://cgi.ebay.com/Atlas-n-scale-Aberdeen-Rockfish-GP-7-205-/280576755223?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4153ad8617 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Atlas-n-scale-Aberdeen-Rockfish-GP-7-205-/280576755223?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4153ad8617)
Jason
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...Chessie System (C&O) GP7. That shell went to a good home.
Lee's???? ??? ??? ???
:P
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I will get one of the A&R GP38s (#405) I ordered from BLW, but the other one was out of stock. Sure hope I get lucky with the GP7, which I had to order from another vendor (I haven't heard from them yet). I also received an email from MBK, and the A&R boxcar is also out of stock. I assume this means that the two gons are shipping. Will have to keep searching for the other GP38 (#400). Grr!
I'll keep my eye out at Timonium for the GP7 and #400...
Tim
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Lee's???? ??? ??? ???
:P
HAHA! Only if it went there to be sacrified to the model railroading gods. ;D Actually, it went to our very own Sizemore, who traded me straight up for an excellent custom-painted and detailed Kato E8 shell in the B&O merger scheme.
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I'll keep my eye out at Timonium for the GP7 and #400...
Tim
Thanks, Tim. That will be especially helpful to have an extra set of eyes out there for me.
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Caboose Hobbies' site lists the boxcar in stock.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?scales_name=N+Scale&roadnames_name=Aberdeen+%26+Rockfish&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&keyword2=&sku=&osCsid=cdbd17c57d7bf54aeff1c9a87b7035ae&maxrow=50&x=13&y=14 (http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?scales_name=N+Scale&roadnames_name=Aberdeen+%26+Rockfish&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&keyword2=&sku=&osCsid=cdbd17c57d7bf54aeff1c9a87b7035ae&maxrow=50&x=13&y=14)
And if you're desparate on the GP7
http://cgi.ebay.com/Atlas-n-scale-Aberdeen-Rockfish-GP-7-205-/280576755223?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4153ad8617 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Atlas-n-scale-Aberdeen-Rockfish-GP-7-205-/280576755223?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4153ad8617)
Jason
Thanks for looking, Jason. If only that GP7 didn't have DCC (which I would end up replacing with a Digitrax decoder), it would be less expensive. But, if that becomes my last resort, I'll consider it. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear from Wig-Wag to see if they had the GP7 in stock and can ship it out.
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Since the PDRR is a subsidiary of the AR, you should decal up at least one of their boxcars for the layout:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=pdrr1004&o=pdrr
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Since the PDRR is a subsidiary of the AR, you should decal up at least one of their boxcars for the layout:
http://canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=pdrr1004&o=pdrr
That's a pretty simple paint job on that PDRR boxcar- one that even I could probably do. ;)
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UPDATE: I was able to order the missing A&R GP38 and boxcar online this evening. Assuming that the vendors do actually have these in stock, I should have the two GP38s, two gons, and a boxcar in hand within several days. Still not sure if Wig-Wag has the GP7, but I'll give them a few days to respond. So, this is a pretty good start on the fleet. If I can get the GP7, I'll have 75% of the prototype's locomotive roster! I love short line railroading.
This weekend, I'll start researching a track plan and perhaps even buy and construct the hollow core door table and legs. I need to figure out if I am going to handlay track or just go with Atlas code 55.
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Don't forget to find a home for that really sweet curved turn-out from the peanut . . . .
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Don't forget to find a home for that really sweet curved turn-out from the peanut . . . .
Not to worry. I will absolutely recycle Chris333's masterpiece: the handlaid curved turnout with 10" and 8-1/2" radii! It still works beautifully.
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Thanks for the offer, Bryan. I was hoping to just find A&R shells at Atlas' store but struck out, because I wouldn't mind just swapping out the shells on my C&O GP38s. That would have saved me the cost of the frames, which I can recycle from the ones I already I own. In fact, one of my C&O GP9s was created that way. It had started life as Chessie System (C&O) GP7. That shell went to a good home.
Yes it did! It now survives on the BYR! Needs "new electrics" so it's sitting at ACME Labs (BYR Shops).
The S.
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UPDATE: I was able to order the missing A&R GP38 and boxcar online this evening. Assuming that the vendors do actually have these in stock, I should have the two GP38s, two gons, and a boxcar in hand within several days. Still not sure if Wig-Wag has the GP7, but I'll give them a few days to respond. So, this is a pretty good start on the fleet. If I can get the GP7, I'll have 75% of the prototype's locomotive roster! I love short line railroading.
This weekend, I'll start researching a track plan and perhaps even buy and construct the hollow core door table and legs. I need to figure out if I am going to handlay track or just go with Atlas code 55.
Yeah so I guess the Missus didnt really have time to factor in on this one.... ;D
The S.
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The S.,
Actually, she did. I discussed all of this with her ahead of time, because I want her to at least tolerate my hobby, if she never becomes involved in it. Since it's her townhome we live in, I made sure to file the proper requests for real estate for a layout. She's has been very understanding, despite being one of those people that looks at model railroading as "playing with trains".
I told her that I was mostly funding this changeover to the A&R and a new HCD layout from the proceeds of the sale of unused rolling stock and locos that I already own. That, however, required her to agree to let me go to Timonium next week (perhaps both days!) to visit the White Elephant table, if necessary to make the needed sales. How's that for swift negotiation on my part? ;D ;D ;D
The D.
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She's has been very understanding, despite being one of those people that looks at model railroading as "playing with trains".
I told her that I was mostly funding this changeover to the A&R and a new HCD layout from the proceeds of the sale of unused rolling stock and locos that I already own. That, however, required her to agree to let me go to Timonium next week (perhaps both days!) to visit the White Elephant table, if necessary to make the needed sales. How's that for swift negotiation on my part? ;D ;D ;D
The D.
You sir are my new role model (sorry Lee). My wife refers to this all as Doll Houses for Men . . . something which she apparently avoided playing with in her youth. As to sales next week, I wish you great success!
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This post reminds me that we were going to have a C&O Mtn Sub meeting to discuss plan about this time. So save some room for a oNeTRAK module.
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This post reminds me that we were going to have a C&O Mtn Sub meeting to discuss plan about this time. So save some room for a oNeTRAK module.
Thought that was supposed to be back in August?!?!
The S.
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(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TMHQ7nG4HUI/AAAAAAAAAf4/L-3-ugBixCY/s800/DSCF1287.JPG)
You KNOW you want to!
Actually, now that I live in Fayetteville, I can get you all the on-the-scene photos that you need. I've been looking for an excuse to railfan the line anyway.
Don't forget that the yard downtown is used by A&R, CSX, and NS. Go back a ways, that becomes ACL (later SCL), and NS (later Southern).
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TMHQ7qqX82I/AAAAAAAAAf8/EWevfVQtiZE/s800/DSCF1289.JPG)
The line on the left is the one the A&R CF7 was switching in the above photos. This MOW equipment came through about five minutes after the above two shots were taken; all of this went down last Friday.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TMHTJGCKieI/AAAAAAAAAgE/JHYN75ih2K4/s800/DSCF1290.JPG)
I can get you drawings of their cabooses.
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Iain,
I appreciate any information that you can pass along, and photos are always welcome. I love your photo of the yard with that jointed lightweight rail. Tell me more about the jointly-operated yard! I'll have to include that on the layout. This would allow me to continue to use my SCL locos, and I think I own a Southern B23-7 that hasn't seen the light of day in years. What luck!
Drawings of the caboose would be awesome, as I would like to make an attempt to build a reasonable facsimile of the A&R's very unique cabooses.
What can you tell me about the scenic aspects of the line? Are there any signature spots, e.g., river crossings worth modeling?
Thanks,
Dave Foxx
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Scenicly, you're talking not much different than what I'm working on with my NS stuff: lots of pine trees, and fairly flat, although there is a grade leading out of the Cape Fear 'valley.' The line looks almost like the draftsman was a little tipsy in places, though. I'd say 80% of the surviving switching in Fayetteville is done by A&R, and it would make for a good modern switching layout. Where the barge landing down to the river was is now a pair of decent sized chemical plants.
The yard is jointly owned by CSX and A&R; ACL and A&R each put in half the money to purchase the land a hundred years ago. CSX now uses Milan on the north side of town as their main yard. NS uses it for the little bit of traffic into town they have, a train every few days.
Shoot me your email, and I'll send you some stuff I can't throw online.
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Iain,Do they still use that CF7 or is it on the PDR??
I have always had a interest in the A&R since reading about in MR (A&R a Railroad You Can Model) in the early 60's.In fact the A&R is what gave me the short line fever.
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Thought that was supposed to be back in August?!?!
The S.
Nope, we never scheduled it cuz I had the ACWRRHS open house in late Sept. Then I forgot about it.
But we got to get Dave refocused back on C&O.
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Well, since the CF7 was rolling around here in Fayetteville a week ago when I snapped the shots, I would assume that it's in use on A&R.
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Well, since the CF7 was rolling around here in Fayetteville a week ago when I snapped the shots, I would assume that it's in use on A&R.
Cool!
That CF7 looks good in A&R colors..
I know the PDR has a CF7 #2486 and since the PDR is subsidiary of the A&R I thought maybe they sent the 2486 to PDR.
Thanks for the information. ;D
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GOOD NEWS! I just received an email from Wig-Wag. They have the GP7! So, although it took a few attempts and orders from a total of five separate online vendors, I should have two GP38s, one GP7, one boxcar, and two gondolas in hand next week. I had to spend a little bit more than I would have liked, but that's the price you pay when trying to locate limited edition and out-of-production items. Oh well, I didn't get burned too bad.
I had the opportunity this afternoon to stop over to my other house and gather up the balance of my rolling stock. I will try to sort out what I want to sell this weekend, and I will list it in the Trading Post first. Anything that doesn't sell will likely go to the White Elephant table next week at Timonium.
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Go forth and have fun Counselor...
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Dave,
Why not go code 55 for the mains (such as they are) and reserve the handlaid code 40 for sidings? That way you can get some trains running sooner, and also have that visual distinction between main and secondary track once completed.
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Dr. Dave,
I will probably take your advice and go with code 55 for the mainline, so I can use commercial turnouts to get the layout up and running. I may even consider using code 55 for the sidings for now. I have a tendency to move things around, because I tend to design as I go. So, it would be easier to pull up and move (reuse) flextrack than handlaid track. I can always go back and replace the flextrack with handlaid track, starting with the sidings.
Mr. Dave
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Go forth and have fun Counselor...
Thanks, Rich!
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Cool!
That CF7 looks good in A&R colors..
I know the PDR has a CF7 #2486 and since the PDR is subsidiary of the A&R I thought maybe they sent the 2486 to PDR.
Thanks for the information. ;D
Other way around, the 2486 went to A&R from the PDRR.
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I received my second A&R GP38 this week. I didn't notice it before, but, interestingly, Atlas really tried to take stock models to come closer to the actual specific locomotives. For example, #400 has no dynamic brakes, but #405 does. Good eye, Atlas. Atlas also gave them slightly different paint schemes (striping and lettering is slightly different), which I must assume at this point was done intentionally. I haven't perused enough proto photos to try to determine if the difference is accurate. I'll try to provide a side-by-side shot of the models later, so you can see what I'm talking about. Since Atlas produced these models at the same time, it wouldn't likely be because they were offered in separate runs and Atlas changed the painting/printing. I haven't received the GP7 yet, so I'm curious to see which one it matches.
(http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/NLocomotives/ngp3840/0708/53978_TQ.jpg)
Here's the actual #400:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1284757
Here's the actual #405:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=90274
The reason for such a fuel tank/dynamic braking difference is that the A&R bought #400 new in 1969, I believe. But, #405 was bought used in the early 2000s. Kudos to Atlas for using different stock models to reflect some of the significant differences on these specific locomotives.
The fuel tanks need to be modified on both models (especially #405), but that is something I can live with for now, since I have more imporatant tasks at hand, e.g., designing and beginning construction of the HCD layout.
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Dave, if you want to come down for a weekend of railfanning, I've got plenty of room to the house.
I m'self have considered getting an AR loco or two, but just haven't ever got around to it. I used to have the gon until it was stolen with the rest of my stuff.
I think Hay's Hobby here in town may have the GP7; I'll look the next time I'm over on that side of town.
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John,
Thanks for the offer on the place to stay. Unfortunately, I don't often get two-day weekends (we usually work Saturdays), but if the opportunity arises and the wife will let me out, I'm there. Heck, I was planning on going to the Timonium show both days this weekend, but work nixed that idea. I will be there tomorrow, though! :)
I see that the A&R interchanged with the original Norfolk Southern in Aberdeen, NC. There's your connection and justification for purchasing the A&R loco(s). I just received a copy of an A&R book from Glenn (known as "extra7000south" here on the RW) and already I have figured out that Aberdeen, with its interchanges with NS (ex-Southern, exx-original NS) and CSX (ex-SBD, exx-SCL, exxx-SAL), screams out operational fun. Well, back to my new book!
Thanks,
Dave
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The 100th anniversary book? I'd forgotten all about that one.
They interchanged with NS in Aberdeen and Fayetteville, ACL in Fayetteville, and SAL in Aberdeen. If you go back enough, you get other Sandhills shortlines as well.
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Yeah, that kind of makes the decision on which era to model all that more difficult. By using GP38 #400, that puts the layout post-1968, but using GP38 #405 (correctly) puts the layout post-2003 or so. I can't figure out if I want to model the modern era (no caboose needed and no commercially-available caboose anyway) or an earlier era that brings back some cool fallen flags. I don't have any modern rolling stock, but I have really admired some of the recent N scale offerings of modern freight cars.
If I model the early 1980s, I can use my Southern Ry. B30-7 that I found in my collection last week, in addition to my Seaboard System equipment. I also have a bunch of 1980s era rolling stock that can be used. I'm really leaning in that direction, but that means I need to build a small fleet of A&R cabooses someday (and run non-A&R foobies in the meantime), and I need a Southern Ry. caboose, too (I always liked Southern's bay-window cabooses, but I don't know if those are available in N scale). Of course, that makes my A&R GP38 #405 an anachronism. I think I will have to (and can!) live with that.
I guess I talked myself into my era: the early 1980s. There, that wasn't so hard.
Dave Foxx
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John,
Thanks for the offer on the place to stay. Unfortunately, I don't often get two-day weekends (we usually work Saturdays), but if the opportunity arises and the wife will let me out, I'm there. Heck, I was planning on going to the Timonium show both days this weekend, but work nixed that idea. I will be there tomorrow, though! :)
I see that the A&R interchanged with the original Norfolk Southern in Aberdeen, NC. There's your connection and justification for purchasing the A&R loco(s). I just received a copy of an A&R book from Glenn (known as "extra7000south" here on the RW) and already I have figured out that Aberdeen, with its interchanges with NS (ex-Southern, exx-original NS) and CSX (ex-SBD, exx-SCL, exxx-SAL), screams out operational fun. Well, back to my new book!
Thanks,
Dave
I'm happy that you recieved the book Dave.
And I hope that you enjoy it and get lots of use out of it!!!
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Dave,
Do you need a copy of that 1965 MR article on the A&R? I bought some back issues today and, lo, there it is. I can scan it and shoot it over to you.
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Come on, Dave. 1970, you know you want to.
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Dave,
Do you need a copy of that 1965 MR article on the A&R? I bought some back issues today and, lo, there it is. I can scan it and shoot it over to you.
Bryan,
That would be awesome. Glenn not only sent me the A&R book but also a scan of an article from what appears to be MR, but it can't be the same article as yours since it has pictures showing the road in May 1974, for example. I'll PM you my email address.
Thanks,
Dave Foxx
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Dave, I may be able to do a railfan trip this weekend; give me locations you want.
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Dave,Out of curiosity I was wondering how you are going to model A&R's cabooses or are you going to use a "good enougher" or model after the cabooses? ???
Anyway congratulations on modeling a great short line. ;D
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Larry,
I bought two undecorated MT cabooses at the Timonium show this weekend for only $7.50 each, which will make great foobies for the time being.
(http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MTL-05100140-2.jpg)
Here's a picture of two of the prototype cabooses for comparison:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1192520
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=616287
The MT cabooses, especially if I cut in a baggage door, will be close enough for me for now. A shot of caboose red paint is easy, but I'll need help on decals. However, I know a few guys here on the RW who might help me with that. Later, after I have bigger issues like trackplanning and building a HCD layout behind me, I'll consider going back and modifying them (or starting from scratch) to make them closer.
Thanks,
Dave
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Outstanding choice far better then the one I pick to use-yes I have often thought about modeling the A&R since reading that MR article in 65.
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Dave
I've got a couple of the Hellgate PRR mailcars which come with 2 different type of doors. Just maybe the older type door would work on your caboose. If you want the doors, let me know.
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That's very generous, Bob. PM me off-list to let me know how much you want to break up the set.
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I saw the 400 today. I couldn't get a good shot without waiting for it to emerge from the yard. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to wait around. Trip to Aberdeen is planned for Saturday afternoon depending on weather, which sucks at the moment (cold rain).
I have finally got all the A&R photos I have access to gathered up, and I'll be getting them emailed right here directly. Most are too old to be of interest to you, but they'll still give you a feel for the railroad.
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I finally received Atlas GP7 #205 in the mail today, so I've now got a fleet! That will be two GP38s and a GP7 on the property and in the stable when I get home tonight. That'll do nicely for the future HCD layout. If I ever get the itch to custom paint a locomotive, then just maybe I'll check out one of the CF7 kits that are supposed to become available in the future.
Until then, this is fine and I'll just worry about rounding out the rolling stock for appropriate freight cars. I bought a couple of tank cars last week at the Timonium show. I could probably use a couple of LP gas cars and a number of grain cars. I just don't know enough about covered hoppers to determine which ones are appropriate yet. Judging by the photos in the A&R book I have, though, I can use some of my existing C&O hoppers for coal deliveries (along with my new LRV hoppers, of course ;)). Nice!
DFF
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Other way around, the 2486 went to A&R from the PDRR.
Cool! Thanks for the information..I will add that to my short line notes of interest.
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Dave, I'll try to get some shots of the hoppers down at the chem plant A&R serves here in town. Tank cars are a must as well.
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Well, I was on my way to my part time gig and I saw the complete roster of A&R equipment on the front of a train. I got photos; I'll get them online tonight.
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SWEET!!! I wondered how often they MU more than two locos. :) :) :)
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(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNShWzHfdeI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/v9PgggeVq7k/s800/DSCF1347.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNShXBTpZaI/AAAAAAAAAiU/_YLeydtke4c/s800/DSCF1348.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNShXYmlJZI/AAAAAAAAAiY/Kw_lnq5GhzQ/s800/DSCF1349.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSfH-KbrhI/AAAAAAAAAhI/oqBhbi_PMrk/s800/DSCF1331.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSfIHP49dI/AAAAAAAAAhM/zjYROZCMEDA/s800/DSCF1332.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSfIMQWBoI/AAAAAAAAAhQ/p_Td2g9cwu8/s800/DSCF1333.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSfISKehKI/AAAAAAAAAhU/H74jKWotwlU/s800/DSCF1334.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSfIrJ1_9I/AAAAAAAAAhY/NUIgO98njLs/s800/DSCF1335.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSf388a1pI/AAAAAAAAAhc/UjX3nzrwIxQ/s800/DSCF1336.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSf4BO_Z1I/AAAAAAAAAhg/vT1xkfGdlrc/s800/DSCF1337.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSf4XkOX3I/AAAAAAAAAho/FHPHHWON5V0/s800/DSCF1339.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSf4tXr9CI/AAAAAAAAAhs/8hotnYSH5qg/s800/DSCF1340.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSgl_qsGkI/AAAAAAAAAh4/bausGChnkGI/s800/DSCF1341.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSgmLoEFbI/AAAAAAAAAh8/9liHUj_ZT_k/s800/DSCF1342.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNSgmc48roI/AAAAAAAAAiA/2yTXgj98Dl8/s800/DSCF1343.JPG)
Notice the ATW hopper. ATW = Atlantic and Western. You will need a few of these if you do modern AR.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNShWhiby1I/AAAAAAAAAiM/VDxHgWmoAWY/s800/DSCF1346.JPG)
I hope these help. If not, I thought it was a sweet find.
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Sweet pics! Looks like the A&R is still a class act. Great pick by Dave; great pics by Iain.
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HAWT! I really appreciate you taking the time to go out, shoot pics, and post them to this thread. What a great find. You have got to love those days when you're at the right place at the right time. Doesn't happen often, which makes it all the more satisfying. Thanks for sharing!
So, four units. Was this to balance power or was this a huge train? Also, what can you or anyone tell me about #102? Long term lease? Has it been on the A&R long and is it expected to hang around a long time?
DFF
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Great photos!
I love that A&R CF7! ;D
I am surprise to see that GATX SW1500. ???
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(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YmW9XnCnhAo/TNShWhiby1I/AAAAAAAAAiM/VDxHgWmoAWY/s800/DSCF1346.JPG)
You have got to love it! Not only is GP7 #205 unrebuilt after 50+ years of service, it's also got its full side skirting above the fuel and water tanks. Many roads torched those off or cut holes into them to ease mechanical inspection and servicing. Supposedly, the steam generator is still in the short hood, too! With the exception of the ditch lights, #205 doesn't look much different than the day it rolled off the assembly line decades ago. Fascinating.
The mechanical department at the A&R must be commended for what has to be superior care of their locomotives. I appreciate the philosophy that if you take care of the locomotives, they'll take care of you. I have never understood the mentality of deferred maintenance on some roads that shall remain nameless.
DFF
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HAWT! I really appreciate you taking the time to go out, shoot pics, and post them to this thread. What a great find. You have got to love those days when you're at the right place at the right time. Doesn't happen often, which makes it all the more satisfying. Thanks for sharing!
So, four units. Was this to balance power or was this a huge train? Also, what can you or anyone tell me about #102? Long term lease? Has it been on the A&R long and is it expected to hang around a long time?
DFF
You're quite welcome.
I first saw #102 about a month ago; but that's when I moved here and started hanging out at the right place (more on that for a SNFF some time; it would have happened this week, but I filled the memory of my camera with A&R). At first I thought it was being used by CSX.
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It's a shame this old girl isn't still around...
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf_f3.jpg)
...although I wonder if CF7 #2486 may have originally been #201?
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf_f7.jpg)
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David,
Those F-units were definitely classy. The story on #201 was that it was not preferred by engineers and was considered unsuitable for switching, because it wasn't very powerful. So, #201 was sold in 1952, and it became RF&P #1111. Number 200 stayed on the roster until 1963 and was traded to EMD as partial payment for GP18 #300.
Therefore, neither is CF7 #2486 in a former life. Number 2486 was a AT&SF rebuild, so, prior to 1975, it was a Santa Fe F7. In 1988, the A&R bought #2486 from the Blue Mountain & Reading RR.
Dave
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Dave, thanks for the background on these units. While the A&R may be small, its history is richly detailed.
As it happened, subsequent to posting the A&R Fs, I came across an A&R roster online that indicated the CF7 was an AT&SF rebuild. I believe a great many CF7s are of that origin; IIRC, the CF7 at Black River may be an ex-AT&SF as well.
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The CF7 was a creation of the AT&SF back in the early 1970s. The Cleburne shops of the Santa Fe essentially took its F-units and rebuilt them into road switcher configurations. This was not as easy as one might think, because they could not just remove the carbody and slap on a new one. The F-units' covered wagon body was like a truss bridge, and it contributed to its strength. In other words, once the sleek body was removed, AT&SF had to build a stronger frame, which can seen above the fuel tank and trucks on the CF7. In most cases, the cabs and the hoods are built from scratch. Apparently, this saved the Santa Fe thousands of dollars, as it was able to rebuild a few hundred of these locomotives at a fraction of the cost of new Geeps.
DFF
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I just picked up the TRAINS LOCOMOTIVE 2010 special edition and there is an article on the Aberdeen & Rockfish in it. Titled "Stronghold in the Sandhills", it is the last article in the magazine (Page 92). It discusses the history of the road and it's current engine roster.
A couple of interesting tidbits...
1. GP18 #300 has some unique features, including having 4-36" fans instead of the standard 2-48" fans.
2. They are performing (or have just completed) a complete rewiring of GP38 #400; GP18 #300 will go into the shop for it's own rewiring when #400 is done.
3. GP7 #205 is named the John Blue, GP38 #400 is named Duke Blue Crane, and both have the names painted on the nose.
4. GP7 #205, GP18 #300 and GP38 #400 were all bought new by the railroad in 1951, 1963 and 1969 respectively. GP38 #405 was bought in 2002 from the Northern Illinois & Wisconsion; it previously belonged to LTV Steel Mining and Erie Mining.
5. The newest additions to the fleet are two SW1500 leased from GATX and the CF7 reassigned from Pee Dee River; these locomotives were added to service the new Clean Burn Fuels ethonal plant at Dundarrach, NC. It is estimated that this plant will TRIPLE the yearly freight carloads on the A&R.
Tim
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The CF7 was a creation of the AT&SF...
Did someone mention CF7s???
(http://www.n-scaler.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/normal_MDDE2632-1.jpg)
This above shot was from a moving CF7 also pictured here:
(http://www.n-scaler.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/normal_MDDE2630-1.jpg)
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I just picked up the TRAINS LOCOMOTIVE 2010 special edition and there is an article on the Aberdeen & Rockfish in it. Titled "Stronghold in the Sandhills", it is the last article in the magazine (Page 92). It discusses the history of the road and it's current engine roster.
A couple of interesting tidbits...
1. GP18 #300 has some unique features, including having 4-36" fans instead of the standard 2-48" fans.
2. They are performing (or have just completed) a complete rewiring of GP38 #400; GP18 #300 will go into the shop for it's own rewiring when #400 is done.
3. GP7 #205 is named the John Blue, GP38 #400 is named Duke Blue Crane, and both have the names painted on the nose.
4. GP7 #205, GP18 #300 and GP38 #400 were all bought new by the railroad in 1951, 1963 and 1969 respectively. GP38 #405 was bought in 2002 from the Northern Illinois & Wisconsion; it previously belonged to LTV Steel Mining and Erie Mining.
5. The newest additions to the fleet are two SW1500 leased from GATX and the CF7 reassigned from Pee Dee River; these locomotives were added to service the new Clean Burn Fuels ethonal plant at Dundarrach, NC. It is estimated that this plant will TRIPLE the yearly freight carloads on the A&R.
Tim
I picked up a copy too and the article on the A&R is very good.
Some nice photos as well.
And....
Gotta love those CF7's!!!
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j46/extra7000south/GS1501-1.jpg)
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I just picked up the TRAINS LOCOMOTIVE 2010 special edition and there is an article on the Aberdeen & Rockfish in it. Titled "Stronghold in the Sandhills", it is the last article in the magazine (Page 92). It discusses the history of the road and it's current engine roster.
A couple of interesting tidbits...
1. GP18 #300 has some unique features, including having 4-36" fans instead of the standard 2-48" fans.
2. They are performing (or have just completed) a complete rewiring of GP38 #400; GP18 #300 will go into the shop for it's own rewiring when #400 is done.
3. GP7 #205 is named the John Blue, GP38 #400 is named Duke Blue Crane, and both have the names painted on the nose.
4. GP7 #205, GP18 #300 and GP38 #400 were all bought new by the railroad in 1951, 1963 and 1969 respectively. GP38 #405 was bought in 2002 from the Northern Illinois & Wisconsion; it previously belonged to LTV Steel Mining and Erie Mining.
5. The newest additions to the fleet are two SW1500 leased from GATX and the CF7 reassigned from Pee Dee River; these locomotives were added to service the new Clean Burn Fuels ethonal plant at Dundarrach, NC. It is estimated that this plant will TRIPLE the yearly freight carloads on the A&R.
Tim
Tim,
I picked up that magazine from a bookstore a few weeks ago, and it was that very article that sealed the deal for me. It screamed, "Model me!" The next thing I knew I had ordered a few locomotives and freight cars and begun planning a new layout. Good stuff.
DFF
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UPDATE: I am closing in on a preliminary hollow core door layout track plan. When I get something worth showing, I'll sketch something up and scan it into the computer to share it.
My thoughts are to model Aberdeen, NC on one side of the layout and Raeford, NC on the other. Aberdeen has a small yard, which I believe was shared by SAL (later SCL/SBD), original NS (later Southern), and the A&R, and the road's three-stall enginehouse is located there. Raeford has an interchange with the Laurinburg & Southern, plus a couple of industries to switch.
I'm thinking about trying to squeeze the 3.5% grade up Bethesda Hill coming out of Aberdeen, which could do a couple of things for me, if this will all fit: 1) adding a grade means short trains (accurate to the prototype A&R) and could be visually (scenically) interesting, 2) I may be able to squeeze a hidden loop in which will add a bit of length to the standard HCD roundy-round loop and could allow me to hide a connection on the Raeford side of the layout to a future yard on an adjacent 12" shelf representing Fayetteville.
Dave
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That sounds like a plan to me Dave!! 8)
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Please forgive the very crude (not-to-scale) sketch, but here is my preliminary idea of the A&R on a hollow-core door. DISCLAIMER: I'm not worried about sharp curves and stiff grades. They're prototypical! Besides, the 2' x 4' layout that I have now has been a very good experiment for reliable tracking on 10" radius superelevated curves, including running full-length passenger cars. Hopefully, I can get some 12-14" radii curves, but I won't lose sleep over 10-11" in the hidden loop. Remember, this layout (as is the prototype A&R) is practically freight only and usually short trains.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00013-20101111-1553.jpg)
I'm thinking of using 1" foam rather than 2" foam on top of the door. Not only am I hoping that 1" foam is more consistent in thickness (maybe available in 4' x 8' sheets as opposed to 2' x 8'?), but, if I use 1" foam, I can set Aberdeen at +1" and allow the grade toward the loop to actually drop until it reaches the point it crosses under itself. That will reduce the elevation at Raeford, although I'm not concerned too much there, because the prototype has a stiff 3.5% grade out of Aberdeen up Bethesda Hill, which would be the track between Aberdeen and Raeford on the end where the enginehouse is.
Things I like about this plan are: 1) it can be a reasonable facsimile of eastbound traffic out of Aberdeen, which heads north and then east (counter-clockwise out of Aberdeen); 2) the variety possible for different industries and commodities; and 3) the number of different interchanges to add operational variety and traffic. FYI, none of the sidings are set in stone. In fact, I really borrowed a few of these ideas from Gordon Odegard's A&R track plan in the 1965 MR article just to get something down on paper.
Oh, most importantly, you will notice the odd shape of the overall layout. I plan to add some width to the door by adding approximately 4-6" in width on a portion of one side and one complete end to expand the door and relieve some of the optimism of this plan.
You can also see the provision for a future extension to a 12" shelf (staging yard) to represent Fayetteville. This would be similar to the Yard-on-a-Shelf that I built for the Virginia Central and would likely have to wait until the next house.
I'll gladly accept any constructve criticism. Thanks in advance.
Fire away!
DFF
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Door layouts are hot. Time for a sandwich... ;D
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I'll pop it into the old track planner and see what comes out, although by eye I have the sense that about 1/3 of the sidings in the yard would have to go...
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I'll pop it into the old track planner and see what comes out, although by eye I have the sense that about 1/3 of the sidings in the yard would have to go...
DKS,
I appreciate your help. That's actually a double track mainline (for the Seaboard System) cutting diagonally across the front of the layout with a three track yard (joint A&R/SBD/SOU) coming off the main. Think about it this way: coming counter-clockwise around the layout into Aberdeen, the A&R comes to the SBD tracks, which it crosses over to get to the shared yard tracks. I'm probably more concerned about the length of those yard tracks than I am getting in at least three tracks. Since the track centers would be 1-1/4", there should be room for the five tracks in the first 12" depth of the layout. That's also why I added width to the layout at then end of the HCD. By the way, that angle of the SBD mainline can be shifted. I was trying to get away from paralleling the layout edge and trying to maximize the radius on the left end of the layout.
Thanks for your help,
Dave Foxx
EDIT: Here's the inspiration for Aberdeen's track layout.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00014-20101111-1729.jpg)
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Yes, I understood the general arrangement. I should have been more clear--up to 1/3 of sidings might have to come out of the yard area, or more accurately, the front half of the layout. But I've already started pushing the buttons, and it's possible to squeeze just about everything in. The harder part will be the back half of the layout, particularly the helix. Stay tuned...
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I know that doors are convenient, but why not just build a 3 foot x 8 foot tabletop?
average door is 30x80, It'd be a hard sell to me that you don't have an extra 16" of space to stretch (and comfortably) fit your layout plan on.
Just a thought. I like the plan, and am looking forward to following its progress.
J
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I know that doors are convenient, but why not just build a 3 foot x 8 foot tabletop?
average door is 30x80, It'd be a hard sell to me that you don't have an extra 16" of space to stretch (and comfortably) fit your layout plan on.
Just a thought. I like the plan, and am looking forward to following its progress.
J
J,
I like the hollow-core door, because it gives a structurally-solid base in only about 1 1/2" thickness. To build a 3' x 8' frame (or 3' x 7' in my case) would likely be much heavier and not as stiff. Layouts that I built in the past with L-girder construction seemed like they could rack, when moved. The sturdiness of the HCD will come in handy as this layout, like most HCD layouts, will be designed to be portable. My local home center has 36" x 80" doors in stock. I'm going to add a few inches to the length and width, but, unless the additional 16" is an absolute necessity to make the track plan work, I would prefer to stay closer to the 7' length, again, for portability purposes.
What I plan to do is screw one or two 2"x2"s to the side and end of the table to add length and width. Once the base layer of foam is installed, you won't even notice the addition.
Thanks,
Dave
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You need to negotiate a modest land grant. The L shape with the yard "off door" will go a long way to improving this plan. It worked well on the Ceano, and will serve you well here. Look at the leaps and bounds Herr Vollmer was able to make the addition of the Enola bit.
I have lots of 12" hollow core doors, and I owe you one anyway. Go for it. Give the missus a bunch of flowers, give her a little pickle tickle, then take over the other wall in the den. It shouldn't be too hard... you're a lawyer afterall!
Uncle Charlie.
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Nice trackplan, Dave.
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf.gif)
Notes: Minimum radius in the helix is 10 inches; it could be pushed to 10.5 or 11, but this would make disguising it more awkward. Dual track enginehouse may not be practical as the tracks are really short. Switches on the mainline are #7; all others, except for the four curved switches, are #5. The criss-crossing sidings in Aberdeen were inspired by the source plan. Naturally it be changed back; I thought it added just a little more interest.
This is of course just a starting point; Lee's suggestion is a good one, and others may chime in, so revisions are sure to come.
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I have to be honest, it looks like you're trying to fit too much into the space. You will end up with sidings that are too short to do much with and not enough room for scenery. If you can do what you did before and throw the yard off the side on a separate shelf, you'd be in much better shape.
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DKS,
That looks great! Thanks so much for taking time to help me. I like the crossing you added in Aberdeen as well, because this adds a little challenge and operational interest to the layout.
I'd like to add the Yard-on-a-Shelf, as Lee suggested, but this layout will be totally freestanding with no wall to support the shelf. Believe me, if that changes, the yard (Fayetteville) WILL be added. The yard on my last layout added so much to operations, turning a roundy-round into an out-and-back-style track plan. The same would hold true here. Dave Vollmer recently told me that Enola Yard has done the same for the Juniata Division. So, I'm aware of the pros of that yard. We'll just have to see if and when I can add it to the layout. At this point, I'll be happy to get the main section of the layout under construction with the provision to attach the yard at any point that I can do so. In other words, a turnout will be installed, allowing for the yard lead to branch off of the loop.
I can't wait to get started!!!
Thanks again,
Dave
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I have to be honest, it looks like you're trying to fit too much into the space. You will end up with sidings that are too short to do much with and not enough room for scenery. If you can do what you did before and throw the yard off the side on a separate shelf, you'd be in much better shape.
I hear you, Dave, and that may exactly be what I find when I lay actual track out on the layout. My biggest concern, as was David K. Smith's, was fitting in the loop. As I stated in my last post, I only have room for this one freestanding table. I just don't have room in our existing basement to add the shelf. It will share space in the basement with storage shelving, a treadmill, my bike trainer, and excess furniture. It's not so much a question of requisitioning additional space from my wife. There's just nothing else to take.
As for the short sidings, the trains on the A&R tend to be short anyway, but I will do everything I can to maximize the length of the yard tracks. I'll even forgo the Southern interchange, if necessary. I also am willing to add length to the door by screwing on 2"x2"s to maximize those track capacities. As for scenery, we're only talking about pine trees in the sandhills of NC, so there's not much lost if a few trees are squeezed out. Besides, that's just that many more trees that I won't have to build. ;D Seriously, I do my best trackplanning in 3D on the actual layout. This is the first time that I have even ever bothered to create a track plan. I usually just start laying track in the space and see how it comes out, moving track around as necessary. I'll do that here, too. What DKS has done for me, though, is to show that it is at least worthwhile to attempt this plan or at least continue to more forward without fear of making changes to improve its functionality.
Thanks,
Dave
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I really like the plan Dave.
I hope that it will work out for you. :)
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Call the ReStore in Wilmington... They can help you with that excess furniture issue...
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I don't like the loop. At all.
While I like the idea of the grade, in theory, I think that when you put that all down in reality, you're going to find that the whole thing is too packed in there, and that the scenery is just going to look too contrived.
I'd strongly advise ditching the helix, and doing more with less.
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Heh! I've got a whole house full of furniture in my townhome in Rising Sun that still hasn't sold.
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I don't like the loop. At all.
While I like the idea of the grade, in theory, I think that when you put that all down in reality, you're going to find that the whole thing is too packed in there, and that the scenery is just going to look too contrived.
I'd strongly advise ditching the helix, and doing more with less.
I almost cross-posted with you on this issue, as I was responding to Lee's. I agree. The more I stared at it tonight, the more I began to realize how much extra aggravation it will be to build it. That, and switching N scale trains on small layouts with grades can be a real pain in the arse.
What it could have done for me is add a little more mainline run and provide a place to branch off to the Yard-on-a-Shelf. That can be rectified by perhaps shifting Raeford towards the left end of the layout enough to add a branch off the top right.
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It's funny, but I almost posted a "this is what I'd do" version last night, and it wouldn't have the helix. I was torn about it because I thought some clever boy would point out that I have two of them on my layout. But it's precisely because I have them that I'd advise against it. Disguising it will be a major challenge and may never look right, construction will be a PITA, and the grades will probably be way worse than you were anticipating.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf2.gif)
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The above plan is exactly the way I would build the A&R.
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It's funny, but I almost posted a "this is what I'd do" version last night, and it wouldn't have the helix. I was torn about it because I thought some clever boy would point out that I have two of them on my layout. But it's precisely because I have them that I'd advise against it. Disguising it will be a major challenge and may never look right, construction will be a PITA, and the grades will probably be way worse than you were anticipating.
I'm not saying that I'm clever, but when you lifted off the top of your Z scale layout at Timonium to display the loops underneath, let's just say that image went straight into my mental bank and was part of the inspiration for the loop on this layout. But, I think y'all are correct: the loop should go. What I may do instead is just add small elevation changes, e.g., 1/2" here or 1" there, which will add a little something something to the layout scenically, but not destroy operations or create a construction nightmare. I really like the revised plan and appreciate your time and assistance.
Thanks!
Dave Foxx
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The loop would be far more effective as long as you have a way to hide it. Not sure what the countryside is like down there in A&R land, but it seems a little tidal to have a big mountain around there... Perhaps a landfill mound?
I like the idea of the loop, I've seen it done with great affect on Rob Carey's Rio Grande layout in Portland. It's cool when a train disappears for longer than you think it should. But his layout is a basement filler, and he has the real estate to get away with it, not mention being set in the Colorado Rockies, where the terrain is a bit more generous for the purpose of slight of hand tricks.
Flesh out the second David plan, add some scenery elements so we can see what you have in mind. Then we'll all go to Brian's to finish his basement so you have someplace for it to go when you and Cynthia score the basement home of your dreams...
Lee
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The loop would be far more effective as long as you have a way to hide it. Not sure what the countryside is like down there in A&R land, but it seems a little tidal to have a big mountain around there... Perhaps a landfill mound?
I was stationed at Fort Bragg for a while .. the countryside is quite hilly .. not Western Maryland like, but similar to where I live now ..
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I'm not saying that I'm clever, but when you lifted off the top of your Z scale layout at Timonium to display the loops underneath, let's just say that image went straight into my mental bank and was part of the inspiration for the loop on this layout.
I had a feeling that's where the idea came from. And I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible to pull off. It's just that, based on experience, they're really hard to do. I think the loop on the Aberdeen side could be hidden perhaps by a couple of large industrial buildings, while the loop on the other side could duck under a sloping hillside--that's why I kept it tight, so that you didn't need to resort to a string of retaining walls, like I did. Your call, of course. One way to see if it's feasible is to do a full-sized cardboard mock-up.
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I was stationed at Fort Bragg for a while .. the countryside is quite hilly .. not Western Maryland like, but similar to where I live now ..
Lee,
John's right. There are quite a few significant hills there in the sandhills. The railroad's profile is a roller coaster with an eastbound ruling grade of 3.5% out of Aberdeen!
I like the loop but recognize the distinct disadvantages of it on this size layout. Hiding it would not be a problem. There's lots of hills and pine trees down there. I thought that it would be nice to add some mainline length so that a train isn't so apparently chasing its tail. It also gave me a place to add the lead to the future shelf layout without it appearing to switch right off of Raeford. But, I think it would be better suited to a larger layout. As I lay out the track plan once I start construction of the table, I'll give a quick attempt to lay out the loop to make the final decision. If anything, just to confirm the practicality and avoid the what-ifs. But, I think it's realistic to presume that it won't work very well. We'll see.
DFF
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I had a feeling that's where the idea came from. And I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible to pull off. It's just that, based on experience, they're really hard to do. I think the loop on the Aberdeen side could be hidden perhaps by a couple of large industrial buildings, while the loop on the other side could duck under a sloping hillside--that's why I kept it tight, so that you didn't need to resort to a string of retaining walls, like I did. Your call, of course. One way to see if it's feasible is to do a full-sized cardboard mock-up.
Good idea, but I may just mock it up in full size to avoid cheating. Once I build the benchwork, I'm working from a blank canvas of a large flat expanse of foam. Your idea to hide the loop is exactly what I had in mind. I also added the width to the layout at the end and side with the hopes that the loop would not infringe on Aberdeen. Again, I just won't know until I lay it out in full size. The nice thing is that my 2' x 4' layout has got me convinced that I have nothing to fear about a 10" radius loop.
Whether the loop ultimately works or fails, I was just trying to do something a little different than the standard hollow-core door layout. Thanks for your input, everyone!
Dave
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It's funny, but I almost posted a "this is what I'd do" version last night, and it wouldn't have the helix. I was torn about it because I thought some clever boy would point out that I have two of them on my layout. But it's precisely because I have them that I'd advise against it. Disguising it will be a major challenge and may never look right, construction will be a PITA, and the grades will probably be way worse than you were anticipating.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf2.gif)
I like this one better too. :) 8)
I'm not a helix fan and on a small layout with short trains the run shouldn't be much different.
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I'm torn, not that my POV counts. I like the gain in elevation the loop gives. That being said, a loop works better in a small space in Z than it does in N. The second issue is how you can hide the skyboard entry/exit and how steep any scenery changes will have to be in such a narrow space. With all that trackwork, the best transition through the skyboard would be a straight-up vertical industry to mask the hole, but that's assuming you want to mask the hole, and I just don't know if the A&R had industries that could accommodate that slight of hand.
Bryan
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I'm torn, not that my POV counts. I like the gain in elevation the loop gives. That being said, a loop works better in a small space in Z than it does in N. The second issue is how you can hide the skyboard entry/exit and how steep any scenery changes will have to be in such a narrow space. With all that trackwork, the best transition through the skyboard would be a straight-up vertical industry to mask the hole, but that's assuming you want to mask the hole, and I just don't know if the A&R had industries that could accommodate that slight of hand.
Bryan,
Your point of view, as well as other asshats, is welcomed. I like the elevation change, too, but I have a suspicion that it's not going to work so well in my limited space. I will try to lay it out once I get the basic table built, just to make sure whether it works or not. Note that the loop would be hidden, so there would not be any abrupt scenery changes. Just a basic low-profiled hill on top of the loop.
As for the skyboard, honesty, I'm not a fan of skyboards that run down the length of the layout, because it's difficult to disguise the openings. I only plan to use one on this layout, because the layout will reside in an unfinished basement. The background will not be suitable for model photography. I may decide to just make a portable backdrop for photography purposes and forgo the layout's skyboard. If I do install a backdrop on the layout, in my case, I think I could disguise the track ducking into the loop with tall Southern yellow pines on the Raeford side and hide the skyboard hole with a highway overpass on the Aberdeen side. If I build the loop, I will construct it so that it does not pass through the backdrop.
DFF
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Make the portable one and eschew it here.
Also, remember, those pines are awfully top heavy, and don't hide as much "down low" as you'd think. This is one of the reasons I've never built anything FEC in N, and why I really admire those who have.
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Make the portable one and eschew it here.
Also, remember, those pines are awfully top heavy, and don't hide as much "down low" as you'd think. This is one of the reasons I've never built anything FEC in N, and why I really admire those who have.
The portable one it is then. With all of the pine trees in this area of NC, I don't really need a break in the scenery to hide one side from the other. I had a small ridge on the Virginia Central and it did a fine job of forming a scenic divide. The key is building the layout taller.
You know, I remember an article in one of the magazines, perhaps, Great Model Railroad, that had a layout set in the South. I'll dig out that article the next time I'm over at my other house and see how that guy did modeled pine trees and hid the backdrop. If I remember correctly, the shelf was not very deep, but it was very effective.
By the way, since I mentioned building the layout taller, I do not plan on using folding table legs on this layout. While neat and tidy, they are not stable. My last layout was pushed against the wall on one end, which kept it reasonably stable, but, unfortunately, this layout cannot do that. As I'm sure Dave Vollmer will attest, those folding legs allow the layout to rock, if bumped. I'm planning on building four legs with cross bracing that the layout will sit on and be easily removed by pulling just a few screws.
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By perusing photos taken in Aberdeen, NC on rrpicturearchives.net, I found these interesting photos:
A great broadside shot of A&R #300. Check out the fuel tank, which is fit only for a short line!
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=708060
This picture has a few elements that I plan to have on my HCD layout. A sharp curve, a small bridge, and... a passenger train?!
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1561515
These shots show who's using the former original NS wye in Aberdeen in the 1980s, a road I'm not familiar with:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1887653
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86785
...and since the 1990s (Aberdeen has seen some classy motive power in its time):
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86443
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86442
For Ed. Does this shot in downtown Aberdeen surprise you? Hint: That's NOT the A&R. ;D
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=49474
And, finally, this one is for Lee and looks more like Aberdeen, Maryland than Aberdeen, North Carolina:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1927818
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I recommend finishing the basement first. ;)
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I recommend finishing the basement first. ;)
Not in this house! Our plans are to somehow get rid of my townhome, which still hasn't sold, and then sell this townhouse. I'm putting as little into both places as I can. That made the $450+ bill last week for the furnace repair hurt all the more.
Unfortunately, since my townhome hasn't sold, I'll likely end up renting it after the New Year, which won't cover but about 2/3rds of its monthly expenses (mortgage, taxes, insurance). :(
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Okay, folks. Thanks to the hard work of David K. Smith and his time spent on my venture when I'm sure he has better things to do during the weekend, here's the latest track plan. What does everyone think? Personally, I love it and can't thank DKS enough for his help.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf5.gif)
DFF
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I have added on to a door in the same way. I think it works great, go for it!
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That is one great plan..I think David K did a swell job.
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As a side note and strictly for my taste I would add one more switch at Raeford for another industry.
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/arf_5b.gif)
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Outstanding layout design. ;D plus 2 thumbs up!
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Thanks, Larry. David K. Smith's drafting and others' suggestions made this come together very easily. It's exactly what I was looking for when I began scribbling down a track plan a few day ago. The final design will allow a reasonable facsimile of the operations in and around Aberdeen, NC. I'm excited to get started.
DFF
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It looks great Dave. :)
I look foreward to seeing you get started and following your progress.
Here's some other A&R photos and information for you;
http://hawkinsrails.net/shortlines/ar/ar.htm
David also did a excellent job drafting out the plan!! 8)
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Thanks, Larry. David K. Smith's drafting and others' suggestions made this come together very easily. It's exactly what I was looking for when I began scribbling down a track plan a few day ago. The final design will allow a reasonable facsimile of the operations in and around Aberdeen, NC. I'm excited to get started.
DFF
Dave,I'm excited to because the MR article on the A&R is what started me on my love for short lines and the A&R still remains on of my favorite short lines.
I can't wait to see photos.
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I guess this means you'll want photos of Aberdeen and Raeford, then? I haven't been able to make the trip like I had wanted because I've had some personal crap come up, but in the next few weeks I'll do my best to get down there.
For Laurinburg and Southern, all you need is a SW1200 or one of Randy's 70 tonner kits. I actually found their paint scheme to be rather attractive. Of course, if you go modern, they're Gulf and Ohio black (ugh).
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Davefoxx, why dont you document the process and keep the stuff for a possible future piece in one of the mags.
Brian
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Davefoxx, why dont you document the process and keep the stuff for a possible future piece in one of the mags.
Brian
I'll definitely document it, so far as posting to The Railwire, for instance, but, realistically, watching what Lee went through to get photographs up to snuff for the magazines, I'm not sure I'm capable of that caliber of photography. Plus, as you can see in the photographs of the table I built last weekend, the basement is a mess and doesn't make for a great backdrop. But, I won't rule it out.
DFF
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OK then just tale pics for us! ;D
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I've started an archive of Dave's progress here--
http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-13.htm
I'm not sure I'm capable of that caliber of photography. Plus, as you can see in the photographs of the table I built last weekend, the basement is a mess and doesn't make for a great beckdrop.
We can always schedule the occasional photo shoot, with portable backdrops and extra lighting, for some good shots when the layout hits key milestones.
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I've started an archive of Dave's progress here--
http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-13.htm
I love it!!!
We can always schedule the occasional photo shoot, with portable backdrops and extra lighting, for some good shots when the layout hits key milestones.
We'll need it: the portable lighting and backdrops, that is. I have one overhead light and one shop light, making the existing lighting atrocious in there. The ceiling is unfinished, so I might try to wire in another box or two up there for more overhead lights. But, I'm not going to put a lot of money into this unfinished basement, because our plans are to sell this townhome in the next year or two.
DFF
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We'll need it: the portable lighting and backdrops, that is. I have one overhead light and one shop light, making the existing lighting atrocious in there. The ceiling is unfinished, so I might try to wire in another box or two up there for more overhead lights. But, I'm not going to put a lot of money into this unfinished basement, because our plans are to sell this townhome in the next year or two.
Lee will tell you I have no shortage of lumens at my disposal.
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What do y'all recommend for overall room lighting? I mentioned yesterday that the lighting is horrible in our unfinished basement: one overhead socket for an incandescent-style bulb? I'm thinking about running a line off of that box to add a second overhead fixture. Should I just put in two 4' fluorescent fixtures? I could even turn the first box into a junction box to center the fixtures in the room better. Honestly, I have no idea what's on the circuit to say whether two fluorescent fixtures will overload the circuit.
DFF
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2 4' fixtures would be my pick. It's highly unlikely that you'll overload any circuit with that. Each tube is 32 watts (1" tubes) or 40 watts (1.5" tubes) so 4 tubes would be <160 Watts. A 15 Amp breaker (typical) gives you ~1500 watts, so you're only using ~10% of it for lighting.
-gfh
P.S. I put in ~12 2-tube fixtures in half of my basement. 8)
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Thanks, Gary. I was hoping that fluorescent fixtures wouldn't put too much strain on the system. Good to know.
DFF
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I downloaded David K. Smith's 1:1 track plan and printed it out today. This evening, I cut and pieced it together to see how it all fit. It looks great and will definitely fit. Unfortunately, I must have entered the parameters incorrectly when telling the software how large to make the picture at the time of printing, because it is slightly undersized. However, it definitely gives me an idea of where the turnouts go, and I can easily connect the dots with flextrack once I have the turnouts placed.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0340.jpg)
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I downloaded David K. Smith's 1:1 track plan and printed it out today. This evening, I cut and pieced it together to see how it all fit. It looks great and will definitely fit. Unfortunately, I must have entered the parameters incorrectly when telling the software how large to make the picture at the time of printing, because it is slightly undersized. However, it definitely gives me an idea of where the turnouts go, and I can easily connect the dots with flextrack once I have the turnouts placed.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0340.jpg)
That is seriously cool. What a great way to get a feel for a plan before even buying anything.
It definitely looks undersized, though. The double-track mainline should go from end to end, likewise the two interchange tracks from side to side.
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I agree. I set the parameters (which uses paper width rather than actual feet) at however many sheets came to 7.9'. But that missed the length by at least 12-15"! The other direction was automatically determined to be 3.1' by the software, and it clearly doesn't reach the end of the table either. Since I blew a chunk of toner on my printer at work, I can't really experiment too much, so I just may use the template as "guidance." I think once I figure out how to center it on the table, I can start setting the turnouts in Aberdeen and go from there. It was not a waste of time, because it definitely gives me an idea of where to start and how to proceed. Thanks!
Dave
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...I can't really experiment too much, so I just may use the template as "guidance."
Absolutely. It's a more than adequate starting point.
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Looks good!
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I figured out what I did wrong on blockposters.com and the 1:1 layout printout. I tried again this afternoon and noticed that the default setting on paper size was A4, not US letter. So, I changed that and the overall "poster" is now 99" wide, so it will be just slightly larger than the table, but I think that should be negligible as far as using the plan merely as guidance to set the turnouts, which will be connected by flextrack.
By the way, if I'm reading the UPS tracking correctly, I should have a package of code 55 track waiting for me when I get home. Yay! :) :) :)
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@DaveF, isn't this the best part of model railroading? I LOVE that bare benchwork stage when you start laying track. When it comes time to solder joints and feeders, however, that's when my enthusiasm begins to wane, lol.
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@DaveF, isn't this the best part of model railroading? I LOVE that bare benchwork stage when you start laying track. When it comes time to solder joints and feeders, however, that's when my enthusiasm begins to wane, lol.
Yessir, the clean slate stage is awesome. It's make or break time. Thankfully, the plan we came up with is not only reasonably faithful to the prototype but will be a lot of fun to operate, railfan, and photograph. I'm going to have a lot of fun staging SCL/SBD trains passing through Aberdeen on the mainline. You know, occasionally, the Juice Train must get detoured from the A-line over to the S-line through Aberdeen. ;)
That's the great thing about DCC on a small layout. I don't have 50,000 wires and blocks to contend with. Yeah, I know, to achive proper conductivity and signal, I should solder a feeder to each rail and/or solder every rail joint, but I don't. Like you, I find that tedious.
I have had minimal problems with just several feeders on a layout of this size. If I experience a problem later, I'll drop another feeder. I had that happen on the Virginia Central: a siding died because a turnout contact must have failed. I scraped some paint and cleaned the rail in a spot, dropped a feeder, and bang!, power restored. I also don't solder every rail joint, to allow for expansion and contraction. I only solder the rail joints in curves to avoid kinks.
DFF
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You may want to at least create a couple two or three power districts. Even on a layout this small, it's useful for pinpointing problems.
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You may want to at least create a couple two or three power districts. Even on a layout this small, it's useful for pinpointing problems.
How does one do that? Are we talking additional boosters or other hardware or are we talking about mere simple double-pole electrical switches to disconnect the sections?
DFF
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mere simple double-pole electrical switches to disconnect the sections.
Ding, ding.
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I still say you should do the late 1960's so that Southern connection becomes an NS connection...
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I still say you should do the late 1960's so that Southern connection becomes an NS connection...
or 1974, then you could have both... or just have a "rubber" era, it is a small layout...
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I still say you should do the late 1960's so that Southern connection becomes an NS connection...
And use what for motive power? A NS Baldwin AS416? Oh... ;D Seriously, most of my collection fits the 1980s, so, for now, that controls which era I model.
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Hey Dave, I was loving the progress on the door. Says you used 1" foam and I see your into trackwork now. In the bridge area with the stream and road ducking under. Will you have enough room to "dig" down that far?
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Hey Dave, I was loving the progress on the door. Says you used 1" foam and I see your into trackwork now. In the bridge area with the stream and road ducking under. Will you have enough room to "dig" down that far?
Chris,
Good to hear from you. Great minds think alike. David K. Smith posed the very same question.
I want to use the lauan surface of the door as the riverbed, so the 1" foam should work out perfect for me. On the Virginia Central, I used 2" foam, which created a lot of vertical separation between the rails and the surface of the river. I don't want that much here, because, on the A&R, there are a number of low wooden trestles. The 1" foam plus 1/8" cork roadbed less negligible thickness for scenery materials and approximately 1/8" - 1/4" for the thickness of the trestle under the ties should still give me at least 3/4" for the trestle bents. That's like 10' in N scale, which is the look I'm after.
Dave
P.S. I'm still looking for a way to recycle your sweet curved turnout into this new layout. It would have been perfect for the enginehouse tracks, except it's a left-hand turnout. I needed a right.
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It could live on as part of the east throat of Ridgeley Yard!... maybe... Hang on to it, I'm toying with completely revising the area around the roundhouse, a couple of sharpish left handers might be just the trick!
Lee
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It could live on as part of the east throat of Ridgeley Yard!... maybe... Hang on to it, I'm toying with completely revising the area around the roundhouse, a couple of sharpish left handers might be just the trick!
Lee
Oh, don't worry about it finding a new home. There's no way I'd even consider tossing that turnout out. It's a piece of art... and a functional one at that. :) But, I'll make you a deal. If I cannot find a use for the curved turnout on the A&R (and if you CAN use it), I'll consider making a donation to the Lee Weldon Foundation.
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You probably don't want such a sharp turnout on this layout always. I wouldn't worry about it, just some rail and solder.
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Don't sell yourself short, Chris. That turnout is awesome and, what I'm sure is a very unique, if not record setting radius, is absolutely worth saving.
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What are the radius's on it again? If you don't use it, I might be able to find a place for it on my door layout (That is when I decide to start it)
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As soon as I started thinking it over, I started tinkering with the yard design, and probably can't use it. See the engineering report elsewhere in these pages...
Lee
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Get this... it's a 10" and 8 1/2" radius! It works flawlessly, too, believe it or not.
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I'm not sure if I could use it then, I'm going to have 6 axle engines on the layout.
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More on the A&R:
http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/travel/video/8704440/
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More on the A&R:
http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/travel/video/8704440/
Brian,
That was awesome! Thanks for sharing. I hope that link will stay active and not be deleted by the news station, so I can watch it again later.
Thanks again!
Dave
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Any thing new to report Dave?? :)
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Well, here's a couple of shots that I posted last week:
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0407.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0409.jpg)
I like this next shot, which shows the nature of this HCD layout: the large Class 1 road roaring through town with the latest power contrasting with the short line's frugality (a decades-old first generation locomotive):
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0410.jpg)
This past week, I finished the track on the Raeford side of the layout. I should be able to finish the Aberdeen side in no time, once I receive two Atlas #5 right hand turnouts that are holding up the installation of the inside A&R track and sidings. I have also cut out the creek between Raeford and Aberdeen and started roughing in some scenic elements. Since I have been trying to document my progress as I go, I will try to post more photos soon.
Thanks,
Dave Foxx
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Nice Dave...Looking good!! 8)
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Well, what an adventure this has been. Thanks for the posts everyone; it has given some new motivation and ideas for me going through this threads process!!
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I reckon you're going to want dirt samples, aren't you?
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I reckon you're going to want dirt samples, aren't you?
I don't necessarily need actual dirt samples. However, since I will soon be looking to hide the foam color soon, a couple of photographs that might give me an idea of the proper color of the earth in the sandhills area (obviously sandy soil) would be helpful. I'll use those pictures to help me determine the paint color for my base scenery (and likely my fascia color).
Thanks,
Dave Foxx
EDIT: Oh yeah, a couple of clear shots of the right of way to give me guidance on ballast color would be very useful, too. Besides weeds, is there any difference in the ballast colors of CSX, NS, A&R, or L&S?
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Noticeable progress on the A&R has come to a screeching halt. I'm having significant trouble with Atlas curved turnouts. There are a number on my layout that are both narrow and wide in gauge, causing all sorts of tracking problems. I have had to remove spikes to narrow the gauge on the portion between the points and the end of the turnout, and I have had to do some "tweaking" on the points to widen the gauge (which is risky because they're fragile). I'm not finished to my satisfaction, because I'm still getting occasional derailments. Also, while I can't attribute derailments to the frogs yet, Fox Valley wheelsets "hop" through the frog, because the flange is shallower than the depth of the frog.
I won't be satisfied until I can run for a long time without derailment, e.g., I used to let a train run on the Virginia Central often while I was on the treadmill for 45-60 minutes and sometimes even longer. I have more work to do to get to that point.
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Sorry to hear you have issues with those curved c55 turnout Dave ;)
Have you posted on the Atlas forum to know whether other modelers experienced similar troubles ?
Anyway, you're entirely right not wanting to go forward on your layout lest the derailing problems are fully resolved ;)
Marc
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Dave
Don't know if it's been mentioned or not but Trains special Locomotive 2010 has an article on the A&R "Stronghold in the Sandhills". Nice article.
Bob
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Dave
Don't know if it's been mentioned or not but Trains special Locomotive 2010 has an article on the A&R "Stronghold in the Sandhills". Nice article.
Bob
Hi, Bob,
That very article was the inspiration for my waffling and deciding to build a HCD based on the Aberdeen & Rockfish RR. It is a great article and was alone worth the price of the magazine.
Merry Christmas,
Dave
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Sorry to hear you have issues with those curved c55 turnout Dave ;)
Have you posted on the Atlas forum to know whether other modelers experienced similar troubles ?
Anyway, you're entirely right not wanting to go forward on your layout lest the derailing problems are fully resolved ;)
Marc
No, I haven't posted over on the A-board yet with these issues. I'll do so now.
DFF
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Originally posted by Cory Rothlisberger
Dave, how do the point rails look to you? Do they look consistent from one turnout to the next? There has been a rare instance in the past where the factory put the wrong point in the wrong mount. If you could, shoot some pictures over to my email. I'd like to figure this one out!
Cory Rothlisberger
Product Development
Atlas Model R.R. Co.
I received the above response from Cory Rothlisberger at Atlas over on the A-board. I promised to send him photos within the next few days around the holidays to document what I'm experiencing. I'll keep you all posted, too.
DFF
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Noticeable progress on the A&R has come to a screeching halt. I'm having significant trouble with Atlas curved turnouts. There are a number on my layout that are both narrow and wide in gauge, causing all sorts of tracking problems. I have had to remove spikes to narrow the gauge on the portion between the points and the end of the turnout, and I have had to do some "tweaking" on the points to widen the gauge (which is risky because they're fragile). I'm not finished to my satisfaction, because I'm still getting occasional derailments. Also, while I can't attribute derailments to the frogs yet, Fox Valley wheelsets "hop" through the frog, because the flange is shallower than the depth of the frog.
I won't be satisfied until I can run for a long time without derailment, e.g., I used to let a train run on the Virginia Central often while I was on the treadmill for 45-60 minutes and sometimes even longer. I have more work to do to get to that point.
I have 4-6 of these on my new section .. I will check them all with a guage tonight .. this worries me also, since several of these are on the main ..
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Oh dear. I feel somewhat responsible for all of this trouble. I hope a relatively simple "cure" can be devised, as these switches are a real godsend for small track plans, and I'm using them on an increasing basis.
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Saw that reply from Cory and am impressed that Atlas is seeking answers to your problems in such a fast manner. Wish all manufacturers were this way.
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Oh dear. I feel somewhat responsible for all of this trouble. I hope a relatively simple "cure" can be devised, as these switches are a real godsend for small track plans, and I'm using them on an increasing basis.
David,
You're not responsible at all. If you remember my very crude drawing of the A&R done with a Sharpie that I posted and which initiated your much appreciated assistance, this is my own doing. I always knew I would use curved turnouts, because they can be sooooooooo space-saving. Even if I have to continue to "tweak" or end up replacing them, there's no way I want to build this layout without curved turnouts. The design just won't work.
DFF
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I have 4-6 of these on my new section .. I will check them all with a guage tonight .. this worries me also, since several of these are on the main ..
John,
I hope you have better luck than me.
DFF
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Oh no! I'm having MORE of THOSE kind of thoughts again! Follow me on this one. You may recall that Atlas' new curved turnouts are giving me fits. I'm really frustrated that I have a new layout that will not run reliably. So, I'm considering tearing out the code 55 track on everything but the Seaboard System mainline, the Southern Ry. interchange, and the joint SBD-SOU-A&R yard and replacing it with handlaid code 40 track. Not only would this distinguish the rail differences between the Class 1s and the short line A&R, but I could get rid of the track that's driving me crazy.
Problem #1: I have spent a serious chunk of cash on the code 55 track. I hate to eat it, and I doubt that Atlas is going to give me a refund. Although, now that I think about it, I believe that I would be tearing out less than half of my code 55 purchase. Maybe the problem of sunk costs is not so bad, but I'll still have the costs to purchase the new track materials and tools. That, and my wife may kill me.
Problem #2: I have never handlaid N scale track, and I have never built a turnout in any scale, especially curved turnouts, of which I would need a handful to replace the code 55 turnouts. However, Chris333's excellent curved turnout that he custom built for me has long been an inspiration to me to give handlaid track a try. If I go this route, what tools will I need and how expensive will the initial outlay of cash be to replace the track on one-half of my HCD layout (the Raeford side)? I might consider a FastTracks template, if one is built to the radii of Atlas' curved turnouts. Is this crazy to consider this much handlaid track when I have practically no experience at it?
I appreciate your comments.
Thanks,
DFF
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Dave,
I would go for it. Get the FastTracks jig. The good news is that they're all the same geometry, just left and right versions, so replacing them should require just the one jig. I bought some pre-made ones, and while I was working with them I managed to damage both of them (though my own incompetence), and ended up having to do some of the soldering myself to repair them. So it's not as bad as all that.
Maybe you can ask Jerry how he got Atlas to settle with him after his Eastern Region track went bad.
I'm disappointed that Atlas' c55 turnouts have been so plagued with trouble. I may consider when it's time to build the "big one" building my own FastTrack turnouts if Atlas hasn't worked out the QC by then.
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Dave, why throw the babies out with the bathwater? If the problems are just with the curved switches, then why not hand-lay only them, instead of everything? Anyway, Code 55 rail will be a bit more forgiving than Code 40 for a first-timer.
You don't need a huge pile of tools to hand lay track. The most important tool is a thermostatted soldering iron with a pencil tip. You'll also need a couple of track gauge tools. The rest is run-of-the-mill stuff--needle nose pliers, flush cutters, jeweler's files, and so on. A small smooth-jaw vice makes it easier to file the points and frog parts--a Pana-Vice with steel jaws would do, although there are alternatives.
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Dave, why throw the babies out with the bathwater? If the problems are just with the curved switches, then why not hand-lay only them, instead of everything? Anyway, Code 55 rail will be a bit more forgiving than Code 40 for a first-timer.
I considered that. But, if I can figure out the curved turnouts, then regular trackwork will be a breeze. This will also allow me to show off the light rail of the A&R, especially when compared to the code 55 on the SBD main. As I check out pictures of the prototype A&R online and compare it to my code 55 track, the rails really appear large for what I want to be obvious as a backwoods short line. Besides, I think I just might enjoy handlaying track, and I'm not worried about the delicacy of code 40 rail. If you think about it, most of the cost of handlaying the Raeford side of the layout will be the curved turnouts. Why not spend a little bit more and do it right? Honestly, I'm afraid that if I did it in code 55 successfully, then I would kick myself for not doing it in code 40. I can see myself then eating those costs (after eating some code 55) and doing it again in code 40. OCD. Gotta love it.
You don't need a huge pile of tools to hand lay track. The most important tool is a thermostatted soldering iron with a pencil tip. You'll also need a couple of track gauge tools. The rest is run-of-the-mill stuff--needle nose pliers, flush cutters, jeweler's files, and so on. A small smooth-jaw vice makes it easier to file the points and frog parts--a Pana-Vice with steel jaws would do, although there are alternatives.
I'm looking at the Fast Tracks website, they offer a jig for a #8 curved turnout (22" and 16" radii), which is really close to the geometry of Atlas' turnouts. While this would be expensive, I do need at least seven curved turnouts. Dividing the cost of the fixtures over seven turnouts would ease the pain to the wallet, and the time savings and the reduction of steepness to the learning curve that the jigs offer make this appealing to me. After a few of these, perhaps I could then begin to build turnouts without jigs, like Chris333 does, and build the regular #5s that I would need.
DFF
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Unfreakinbelievable. Code 40 rail is on backorder through Fast Tracks until at least mid-February 2011. Who said that N scale is dying? Somebody is buying all of the track parts up. Recently, it was flextrack and #5 turnouts. Now it's plain ol' rail! Sheesh. I'll have to find another supplier.
DFF
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Ran across this awhile back. May be of some interest or use to you.
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Unfreakinbelievable. Code 40 rail is on backorder through Fast Tracks until at least mid-February 2011. Who said that N scale is dying? Somebody is buying all of the track parts up. Recently, it was flextrack and #5 turnouts. Now it's plain ol' rail! Sheesh. I'll have to find another supplier.
DFF
Try proto87.com, they have it listed. http://www.proto87.com/n-scale-track.html (http://www.proto87.com/n-scale-track.html),
Phil
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Thanks, Phil!
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Dave,
I've heard Atlas will replace any turnouts if you send yours in. Although they might have none in stock. I'd try that first.
Handlaying the whole layout with C40.... yikes :o I wouldn't want to do that myself.
If you buy the FT jig for the curved TO's you should be fine, they are pretty fool proof. The only jig I own is a C55 #5 so you could borrow it if you want to see how it goes.
As for layout turnouts without a jig. Well I do use a detailed drawing like the templates they offer. This way I don't have to guess on anything, I know right where to cut and bend the rail and know it will fit. I draw the base and head of the rail so each rail is 4 lines. This tells me exactly how the pieces around the frog and guard rails come together. If I just freehanded the whole thing I be cutting pieces over and over, getting pissed till the thing worked right.
I'm no pro. About all I can say about your sharp curved turnout is that the NMRA gauge went through it. Luckily it worked ;D :P
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Dave,
I've heard Atlas will replace any turnouts if you send yours in. Although they might have none in stock. I'd try that first.
Handlaying the whole layout with C40.... yikes :o I wouldn't want to do that myself.
If you buy the FT jig for the curved TO's you should be fine, they are pretty fool proof. The only jig I own is a C55 #5 so you could borrow it if you want to see how it goes.
As for layout turnouts without a jig. Well I do use a detailed drawing like the templates they offer. This way I don't have to guess on anything, I know right where to cut and bend the rail and know it will fit. I draw the base and head of the rail so each rail is 4 lines. This tells me exactly how the pieces around the frog and guard rails come together. If I just freehanded the whole thing I be cutting pieces over and over, getting pissed till the thing worked right.
I'm no pro. About all I can say about your sharp curved turnout is that the NMRA gauge went through it. Luckily it worked ;D :P
...and still works beautifully many months later. :) Thanks for the offer to borrow your #5 template. I may take you up on that, if I take the plunge. I'm kinda waiting to see Atlas' response on the A-board thread. If I do go code 40, I'm not replacing the entire layout, probably only about one-third of the track. Other than the sheer number of curved turnouts, it's not that bad. The Seaboard System double track mainline, the Southern Ry. interchange, and the SBD-SOU-A&R yard would remain code 55.
DFF
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All right, I pulled the trigger and ordered a bunch of supplies from Fast Tracks and proto87.com to begin handlaying the A&R portion of my HCD layout. It will likely be a few weeks before I get the order (Fast Tracks ships from Canada), but I will post pictures of my progress.
Next step, start pulling up the code 55. As a reminder, the track in the areas that represent the double-track SBD mainline, the Southern Ry. interchange, and the joint SBD-SOU-A&R yard will remain code 55, so I am only pulling up approximately one-third of the layout. These areas use Atlas #5 and #7 turnouts only (conveniently, no curved turnouts).
DFF
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Way to go Dave! When you get god at it, I'll host a tutorial session on the BRS. There's a corner that needs a non-standard curved turnout . . . . .
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So, I think I have it figured out .. at least for my curved turnout that derails stuff
My turnout - the closure rails seem to be rather wide near the ends , this then makes the gauge too tight, but part of the problem also seems to be the outside rails aren't far enough apart
So, I took the soldering iron, and heated the outside rails, and using a small flat head screwdriver I pushed the rail outward about the width of the NMRA gauge .. remove the iron, and let it cool .. then add a touch of superglue on the outside of the rail ..
I also used a small needle file to clean up the point of the closure rails a bit ..
A touch with the soldering iron could also be used to move the guard rails ever so slightly toward the outside rails .. not too much, but it should keep the wheel from hitting the frog point
Just speculation, but it's possible that in the molding process, the outside rails weren't set far enough apart .. it also appears that the closure rails should be thinned near the point end so that they fit tighter into the outside rails. The notch could also be a bit deeper ..
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Thanks to Phil's (conrail98) suggestion, code 40 rail and fishplates from proto87.com was delivered this morning. Now, I'm just waiting on the delivery from Fast Tracks and some more cork roadbed from MBK. Hopefully, I'll begin handlaying track by this weekend.
DFF
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This is going to be awesome.
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Thanks to Phil's (conrail98) suggestion, code 40 rail and fishplates from proto87.com was delivered this morning. Now, I'm just waiting on the delivery from Fast Tracks and some more cork roadbed from MBK. Hopefully, I'll begin handlaying track by this weekend.
DFF
No problem Dave. I'll be interested to hear your experience with them and their product. I've got Fast Track jigs and could order track through them but proto87's prices on code 55 rail are phenomenal,
Phil
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Dave,
In prep for your Fasttrack order I would get something like a 24" flexible straightedge and go over all your cork roadbed to make sure every inch is perfectly flat. Handlaid track will be less forgiving to little dips.
And did you get a jig for the flex track? If no I would rig something up like this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ErieChris333/ZScaleLayoutTakeFour#5380381291583228914
To solder the PC's to one rail. After that is laid down you go and place the second rail with a gauge.
This shows pretty much how I do it:
http://raybob.boche.net/projects/page921.htm
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Chris, does that come in N? I had looked at the FT jigs but thought they were a little on pricey side for doing handlaid Flex,
Phil
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Robert made that jig for me in Z scale. He has his own laser. It is pretty easy to whip up a quick jig in N scale. It only needs to hold about 4-5 ties. Once you solder those in you move over so one soldered tie is still in the jig and solder the next batch. Keep going till all 36" over rail is done.
I build turnout if I NEED to, but for everything else I'd just use flextrack. In Z scale there is no C40 track so I laid it all.
***this is just "how I do it" no set rules really ;) ***
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Hi, Chris,
I like your method of handlaid flextrack. I've never seen that before.
I'll definitely check the flatness of the cork roadbed. Thankfully, I'm modeling a short line (you should see the prototype A&R's trackwork in places!), so it doesn't have to be perfect. And, since I'm using individual ties, I'll be doing it the old-fashioned way and installing the rail in place. I bought a tie rack that will allow me to lay down a stretch of ties on "branchline" centers at one time. I'll insert PC board ties every so often, as necessary, to secure the rail.
Dave
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Ahh see. I always slide in the wood ties once the track is down and running. Again mostly in Z scale.
Just check and make sure the wood and PC ties are the same height.
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I haven't received my order from Fast Tracks yet. I would hope that these products are designed to work together, so that the wood and PC board ties are the same height. We'll see. They seem to work fine in the videos on Fast Tracks website.
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Look forward to seeing you results Dave. Next thing you know you'll be putting in some code 25 sidings.
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Look forward to seeing you results Dave. Next thing you know you'll be putting in some code 25 sidings.
Haha! I'm not so sure about that, though, because I don't have DKS's talents. But, I did ask him about some of the details of his code 25 track on his Z scale layout when we met at the last Timonium show. His work is impressive.
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http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=pv4mvm8dv67c&lvl=19.669771913362407&dir=351.4848565669826&sty=b (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=pv4mvm8dv67c&lvl=19.669771913362407&dir=351.4848565669826&sty=b)
A&R GP38 in Fayetteville.
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Finally! I got an email that my Fast Tracks order has finally shipped. "Built to order" takes a while, but I have tried to be patient. Now, I'll have to wait to see what shipping from Canada and customs will do to the delivery date. Stay tuned. Hopefully, we'll see some code 40 on the A&R in the coming weeks.
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After a delay due to my own lack of ordering a Stock Aid tool to assist me with filing the stock rails, I believe that I now have all of the tools that I need to start handlaying track on the A&R.
That said, I only have rosin flux in a paste. Does everyone think this will work for soldering rails and ties? I always used it with no issues when soldering wires and feeders. Fast Tracks recommends their liquid flux, which incidentally is acid based. I always thought that was a no-no when used in a joint that will carry electric current.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
DFF
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Ha ha I thought you gave up already. :P
If you use the wrong solder can't you just wash it when you are done?
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My long ago experience has been that the Acid Flux unless properly cleaned somehow, will continue to attack the solder joint. You'll notice a patina of corrosion until the joint just fails.
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Ha ha I thought you gave up already. :P
If you use the wrong solder can't you just wash it when you are done?
HAHAHAHAHA! No, I haven't even really made an attempt at it yet. But, give me a few more days to quit!
My long ago experience has been that the Acid Flux unless properly cleaned somehow, will continue to attack the solder joint. You'll notice a patina of corrosion until the joint just fails.
This was my understanding as well. Is there an advantage of liquid versus paste flux, if both are available in as non-acid based?
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I got a pot of electronics flux at Radio Shack for $Next.ToNothing. It will last me until I die. It's acid free. The acid stuff is what you use to flux a plumbing joint.
Lee
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I got a pot of electronics flux at Radio Shack for $Next.ToNothing. It will last me until I die. It's acid free. The acid stuff is what you use to flux a plumbing joint.
Lee
This sounds like exactly what I have. I think I've had it in the toolbox for about 20 years. Just curious as to whether I need the liquid flux for soldering trackwork together. Seems to me that the liquid might be easier to apply, but the paste will flow as soon as it's heated. So, it's probably not an issue. I did get some of those micro-brushes, so this should help me apply the flux to the right places. If I have the time tonight, I'll give it a shot. Wish me luck.
DFF
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Sheeyit. I just dab the end of the solder into the paste, stick it on the joint and presto. It took about an hour to lay the track on the helix, including glue drying time. Liquid flux and micro brushes just seem a little too fussy to me.
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This is what I have been using for about 10 years now:
http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=239
Says right on it "Not recommended for electronic use"
Oh well... I never had a problem and I flux everything I solder. Your curved turnout was made with it. On all track work I scrub it with goo gone or simple green, and then use soap and water.
Edit:
It also says "Do not use on stainless steel" Guess what I have soldered with it? :D
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Featured in our how to solder video, Kester acid based soldering flux is what we recommend for soldering trackwork in Fast Tracks assembly fixtures.
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Kester-Acid-Paste-Flux-p/sp-30.htm
Kester acid based soldering flux is only suitable for soldering trackwork. Do not use this flux for soldering electrical connections or electronic components. Be sure to thoroughly clean the track using a stiff wire brush and warm water after soldering to remove all traces of flux.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I do wonder why one would use an acid flux, myself included in the past, when everything I've read seems to indicate not to. ???
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I got a pot of electronics flux at Radio Shack for $Next.ToNothing. It will last me until I die. It's acid free. The acid stuff is what you use to flux a plumbing joint.
Lee
Actually acid based flux is or used to be a mil spec requirement. As far as the difference between liquid and paste in 'no-clean' flux Liquid typically has less solids residues. Kester flux pens (http://www.kester.com/SideMenu/Products/HandSolderingMaterials/FluxPens/tabid/263/Default.aspx) work well for liquid flux on small jobs.
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Sheeyit. I just dab the end of the solder into the paste, stick it on the joint and presto. It took about an hour to lay the track on the helix, including glue drying time. Liquid flux and micro brushes just seem a little too fussy to me.
I was talking about trying to use the micro-brush to control where the paste flux goes, which should control where the solder goes. That should ease the clean-up of excess solder. I could lay that track on your helix in about an hour, too. But here, I'm trying to be extra neat, because the appearance of this track is much more important to me than hidden trackage. I'm also way down low on the learning curve of handlaying code 40 track and building turnouts, so I don't want to create extra work for myself by being sloppy.
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This is what I have been using for about 10 years now:
http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=239
Says right on it "Not recommended for electronic use"
Oh well... I never had a problem and I flux everything I solder. Your curved turnout was made with it. On all track work I scrub it with goo gone or simple green, and then use soap and water.
Edit:
It also says "Do not use on stainless steel" Guess what I have soldered with it? :D
HA! Good stuff. Hey, we're men; we're not allowed to follow the instructions, right?
At the same time, though, you answered my next question on what to use to clean up excess flux. Thanks.
Dave
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Remember, it says to use it in the fixtures, not to join track. Your soldering the rail to the PC board ties in their jigs, different than soldering joints,
Phil
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I do wonder why one would use an acid flux, myself included in the past, when everything I've read seems to indicate not to. ???
Same here, Bryan, which is why I asked that very question. Chris333's last post is the flux-at-issue, and you can see, it's acid flux. Curious to see the results of that many years down the road. Maybe we're making too big a deal of it, since DC/DCC is low voltage? Not sure.
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Remember, it says to use it in the fixtures, not to join track. Your soldering the rail to the PC board ties in their jigs, different than soldering joints,
Phil
Phil,
Is the theory that the joints between the PC board ties and rail aren't completing a circuit? That seems funny to me, because those rails are live.
DFF
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Phil,
Is the theory that the joints between the PC board ties and rail aren't completing a circuit? That seems funny to me, because those rails are live.
DFF
I think it's because you don't want a circuit between the rails and the ties, you'd get shorts. That's why they tell you to score the PC board ties as well,
Phil
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Even if I just solder a joint it still gets cleaned. If not how would paint stick to it later. Sometimes I just spray alcohol and tooth brush it.
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The difference between any paste flux and most liquid fluxes is the base. The paste is grease-based; liquid is usually water-based. The latter is infinitely easier to reliably clean up: just rinse it with water. The grease-based fluxes leave all manner of cruddy residues behind that require solvents to completely remove. This is why the only flux I use is liquid acid flux. Stay Clean is one of many liquid fluxes that not only make soldering faster and cleanup easier, but it works on stainless steel as well. And I use it on all soldering, including electrical, even 0402 SMDs. Have not found anything better, won't use anything else.
Why use an acid base flux? It may seem counter-intuitive because it sounds like the acid is doing something nasty to the metal. Actually, what's happening is it's chemically reducing oxides that form when the metal is heated. The oxides would otherwise prevent the solder from bonding to the metal. Without some form of flux, it's challenging to make a good solid solder joint. Liquid acids are among the most effective because they react very quickly, and promote faster and better soldering.
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Another post of the day from DKS. Here's some more info:
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,23258.msg223082.html#msg223082 (http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,23258.msg223082.html#msg223082)
Now I'm getting a hankering to get back to my handrails.
-gfh
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Thanks, everyone!
Anyhow, I spent most of the evening watching Fast Tracks videos and playing along at home. Here's the fruits of my labor tonight: my first hand-built turnout in any scale. This one is an N scale code 40 #8 (20"/15" radii) curved turnout.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0463.jpg)
Take that, naysayers. ;) One thing's for sure; a freight car truck seems to roll through the frog smoother than my commercial turnouts. I'll have to wait to check the complete operation, as the turnout still needs to have the gaps cut in the rails around the frog. But, I'll need to get a small jeweler's saw to do so.
DFF
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If it really cleans up with water I will have to get some.
BTW Dave, that looks pretty good and it's your first.
Edit: So I just bought this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220735858604
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If it really cleans up with water I will have to get some.
BTW Dave, that looks pretty good and it's your first.
Edit: So I just bought this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220735858604
Ouch!!!! That shipping charge is more than the item. :o
Jon
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Ouch!!!! That shipping charge is more than the item.
You can buy this one if it makes you feel better:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stay-Clean-Soldering-Tinning-Flux-16-Oz-Sclf16-/250766403379
:P
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So I just bought this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220735858604
That should last you about the next 150 years. I get the tiny eye-dropper sized bottles and they'll usually last me 2-3 years each.
Dave, that turnout is a handsome beast, and an impressive first shot.
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No doubt! Nicely done.
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Well done Dave. I'm envious to be sure. I'll need to P/U some of this Stay-Clean stuff.
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Thanks, guys!
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Updates?
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Foxey is your last name PECO?
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HAHA! Good one, Chuck!
Updates: Unfortunately, there are none as I type this. You see, my layout is at my other house that we are still trying to sell, because we are still dealing with space issues in the house that my wife and I are now sharing. Since our houses are approximately 25-30 miles apart, it's difficult to find the time to work on the layout. Ideally, within the next several weeks, we'll resolve the storage issues and the layout, treadmill, and other personal effects I sorely miss will be moved. At least I hope so: I'm presently building a new 6' closet in the master bedroom as one attempt to deal with the problem.
Thanks for asking,
DF2
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As some of us have discussed elsewhere, I finally sold my townhouse! That's the good news. Part of the bad news is that there will be no way that the A&R (or any HCD layout) will fit into our current home (my wife's townhome). Eventually, we'll sell this townhome, too, and buy a single-residential home that will fit our needs since we got married last year. The A&R can be revived then, but I fear that could be a number of months or more than a year away. In the meantime, trying to get all of my furniture and personal things out of my old townhouse by June 2nd and into our home means that the the A&R will have to be sidelined for a while. Thankfully, some friends (good people I met here in the 'Wire) have offered to store it temporarily.
Here's a brainstorm I had tonight. I have all of those code 40 tools and supplies that I spent a few hundred dollars on to handlay track on the A&R. I'm thinking about finding a small plan, something like I had in the 2' x 3' peanut that I built before the A&R was started, but a little larger. I figure a 2' x 4' or maybe a 2-1/2' x 5' could be feasible, because it would be small enough to be portable and could even be stored on its end, if necessary. This would also allow me to develop my handlaying skills. The only problem I have is that I only have a FastTracks template for a 20"/15" radii curved turnout and would likely need a #4 or #6 turnout template as well. While that would mean another significant investment, it could be reused on the A&R in the future.
So, I'm going to scout out track plans and see if I can come up with anything interesting, while I also search for space in our home. Don't tell my wife, but the kitchen table is probably about 36" x 60". Sure would make a great place to work on a layout, which could also be slid under a bed or put in a closet while not being used. ;)
DFF
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Dave,
The best collection of small plans I've ever seen was on Carl Arendt's website. While Carl passed away recently, some of the guys on the Small Layout Design Yahoo group managed to pick it up and have it running again. For that matter, the layout plans drawn by the members of the aforementioned group may be of interest to you as well.
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Dave - Just claim eminent domain - and stake out the necessary room :)
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Dave - Just claim eminent domain - and stake out the necessary room :)
You obviously haven't met my wife. ;D
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Dave,
The best collection of small plans I've ever seen was on Carl Arendt's website. While Carl passed away recently, some of the guys on the Small Layout Design Yahoo group managed to pick it up and have it running again. For that matter, the layout plans drawn by the members of the aforementioned group may be of interest to you as well.
Thanks for the info, Philip!
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I've also found a site, Mike's small Trackplans Page, has some good ones as well.
http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm (http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm)
Phil
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Darn Dave, your wife must be a better lawyer than you!
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And of course there's Railwire's built-in service. Just start with an idea and see where it can go.
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I've also found a site, Mike's small Trackplans Page, has some good ones as well.
http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm (http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm)
Phil
Hi, Phil. I was looking at that site just last night while I was posting here. Great site. Thanks!
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With the small space you have I'd consider either a highly detailed diorama or module.
BTW my wife is a lawyer. Nonetheless, she has ceded total control of the basement to me and my projects. Her only stipluation is that when the time comes to sell the house, it has to be returned to original condition. But I suspect that will be a problem for my estate as more than likely I will DIP.
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Well, having blown out my knee, I'm kind of stuck at my desk, so to take my mind off the pain I tinkered together a 2x4 rendition of the A&R, just in case you were interested in building a little roundy-rounder. It uses your curved Fast Tracks jigs, plus a left #6 jig.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/df2x4.gif)
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Dude!!! That's really nice. I like it, because it's not a spaghetti bowl, like some of the small layout designs you find on the web. Simple, but has room for some ops, and it could be super-detailed. Fun!
By the way, I was eyeing your Z scale Franklin and Manchster plan last night. Unfortunately, it will be too big in N scale. :(
Thanks,
Dave
P.S. I hope your knee is feeling better.
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Dave, have you thought about doing that as something like the Laurenburg & Southern, or the Atlantic and Western? All fun little roads powered by small GEs (I think 70 tonners).
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Dave, have you thought about doing that as something like the Laurenburg & Southern, or the Atlantic and Western? All fun little roads powered by small GEs (I think 70 tonners).
Hmm. I've been tempted to get a 44- or 70-tonner, but my wife would kill me and I should spend as little money as possible, considering the loss I'm about to take on the townhouse. Probably the prudent choice would be to build something to fit my fleet. The more I look at DKS' plan, the more I like it. A roundy-round is my preferred choice for a small layout.
Last night, I was considering trying to find a way to build a small roundy-round, not unlike DKS' plan with a backdrop splitting the layout, but have the RF&P/C&O interchange at Doswell on one side and something like the Verndon quarry (served by the C&O) or the nearby paper mill (located on the C&O but served by both roads) on the other. The RF&P double-track mainline would be a truncated line (would have to figure out how to hide this track against the backdrop) and the C&O single-track would be the roundy-round route.
Anyhow, that might be too much for a small layout. Thankfully, DKS has given me some food for thought. This is fun!
DFF
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Here's what I'd do. (And granted, I'm not normal in the least)
If you have some scene in mind that you want to absolutely include on some future layout, consider designing a small module that scratches that itch and can be adapted for inclusion in some master plan down the road. Right after I bought my house, I started scribbling possible plans for the attic, and they all included a wide river scene with some bridges.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/First_Section_Plan.jpg)
I knew it would be 10 forevers before I could actually get started on the layout, but I wanted to try out bridge track, river bank scenery, a c55 turnout... that sort of thing, so went ahead and built a 36" x 13" diorama.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Bridges_Roughed_in.jpg)
It kept me amused, and I didn't feel like I was wasting my time on something that would end up getting junked. (Although I did end up building a 3x8 temporary rig to scratch that roundy round itch...)
Today, it survives, although substantially altered, and provides the critical link across the window to join the two halves of the layout together.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ERLF7TTPvmA/TUF2XV88PLI/AAAAAAAAMZw/DZmNuiGjzLw/s800/New%20Weeklies%20150.jpg)
To me, a peanut shaped loopty loop can be a fun exercise, but of no substantial use toward a longer range goal.
Lee
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/df2x4.gif)
DKS,
Just brainstorming here: what if you pushed both of the curved turnouts on the Aberdeen side into the corners just enough to fit a #6 right at the left end and a #6 left at the right end? The end result would be a slightly longer passing siding and a representation of the SBD main coming straight through town. Does that make sense?
As for the Raeford side, I like it simple, just as you have drawn it.
DFF
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DKS,
Just brainstorming here: what if you pushed both of the curved turnouts on the Aberdeen side into the corners just enough to fit a #6 right at the left end and a #6 left at the right end? The end result would be a slightly longer passing siding and a representation of the SBD main coming straight through town. Does that make sense?
As for the Raeford side, I like it simple, just as you have drawn it.
DFF
Funny you should suggest this, as I was in the midst of doing something close to that, only without both #6s.
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Lee,
Your point is very well taken. However, for me, I like to run trains, and I can't do that on a module. I need my roundy-round fix, which is why I tried to build the HCD version of the A&R and why I now need to build an even smaller version. If and when I can get back to the door layout, much of this little layout could be transplanted (turnouts, buildings, rolling stock, etc.).
Besides, these small layouts work better for me. I work at a snail's pace compared to many of you.
Thanks,
Dave
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To me, a peanut shaped loopty loop can be a fun exercise, but of no substantial use toward a longer range goal.
Except that your diorama module provides no operational opportunities. Plus, the roundy-rounder might not be incorporated into something grander, but it provides a lot of valuable modeling exercise. And the structures could be recycled, of course; or, one could keep the little guy intact to take on the road to shows and whatnot.
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OK, so here's what I think you were talking about, Dave? The curved switches can't be pushed out any further than this, because they force the end curves tighter owing to their much larger outer radius. I also wonder about putting the effort into hand-laying two switches that are essentially dummies, unless you were thinking of spotting cars on those two tracks for fun.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/df2x4_2.gif)
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OK, so here's what I think you were talking about, Dave? The curved switches can't be pushed out any further than this, because they force the end curves tighter owing to their much larger outer radius. I also wonder about putting the effort into hand-laying two switches that are essentially dummies, unless you were thinking of spotting cars on those two tracks for fun.
Yep, you nailed it, but, oooh, I see your point about the broad radius of the curved turnouts. Good thinking on your part. I'm not too concerned about building a couple of extra turnouts, because I really expect, once I get a little more experience in hand-laying track, that I will be able to build a turnout in under an hour. I think this revision actually captures the essence of Aberdeen.
If possible, I would expand it to 30" x 54" or even 30" x 60", which would ease the pain in the corners.
DFF
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DKS,
It just occurred to me that we could do the same thing that was done on the A&R HCD layout. That is, install code 55 on the SBD main, which could use either Atlas #5 or #7 turnouts. In other words, I wouldn't have to build those two turnouts or even the third one that represents the lead to the SOU interchange. ;)
DFF
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Build the little 2x4, and add a HCD 12" length of the left into a little yard ... join them both with a hinge that you can remove the pin from ... and you have portable - kitchen table - spare room layout
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Here's a thought. Taking a tip from the original HCD version, add a pair of triangular bumps to the ends of the 2 x 4 to make it 2 x 4.5, and it eases the pain of the end curves enough to allow for an even longer runaround--
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/df2x4_3.gif)
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DKS,
I'm away from a computer, and, unfortunately, I can't see your latest plan on my mobile version of TRW. Sounds intriguing, though! I'll be sure to check it out as soon as I get home later tonight. Thanks for your efforts and time.
Dave
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Thanks for your efforts and time.
My pleasure. I'm sure not going anywhere with this knee.
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That looks sharp! In my mind's eye, before I was actually able to see your plan, this is what I envisioned with your description of triangular bumps at the ends. In actual construction, I might actually use convex ends, rather than angled, but that's only for aesthetics and shouldn't affect the track plan, which I really like. Small and manageable. Just what I need, so I can actually be expected to make reasonable progress on a layout. ;)
What radius did the ends turn out to be in your plan? Below 10"? If so, I really should consider a 30" x ??" plan. If 10" or above, especially considering the easements built in with the curved turnouts, I'll likely stick to 24" x ??". The advantage of a 24" depth is because the 2" foam in my area is only 24" wide. I'd have to join it to create a deeper layout, and my experience is that the foam is not perfectly uniform and those seams take work to make them flat.
For benchwork, I was thinking two layers of 2" foam. It will be plenty sturdy for its size (and light) and the top layer could be relieved to build the areas below track level, e.g., the creek. I've got a scrap of 1" foam that might just be large enough for the backdrop.
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What radius did the ends turn out to be in your plan? Below 10"?
Just about 10" throughout, so you should be good to go with 24-inch depth.
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Thanks, David! Hope you're feeling better soon.
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DKS,
I laid out some turnout templates on a piece of foam tonight, but it's tight. Any chance, if it's not too much of a problem, to have you forward a 1:1 plan of the 24" x 54" layout? Sure would be helpful to calculate the angle of the tangent track (as compared to the layout edge) in Aberdeen and figure out where the curved turnouts fit in the curves.
Thanks,
Dave
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Here you are. I made a few minor tweaks to smooth out the curves better. Let me know if you need any other adjustments.
http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/df2x4_121.jpg
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Thanks, David! I'll try to print the plan out at work today and hopefully get the track plan finalized this weekend. If I can scrounge enough cork roadbed at my other house, I may be able to finish that task this weekend.
EDIT: Got it! Used blockposters.com as recommended when we designed the A&R HCD layout. Worked beautifully. The track plan printed out at approximately 4.7 by 2.1 feet. That should get me close enough to figure out how to fit the turnouts in. By the way, the whole thing took only fifteen sheets of paper. Gotta love small layouts! ;)
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I settled on a 24" x 54" layout, although I will likely add an inch or so to the width before applying a fascia, so the track is not so close to the edge on the Raeford side. As you can see, I recycled some #7 turnouts from the A&R HCD layout, which altered the geometry enough that I had to lose the siding (call it the Southern Ry. interchange) on the Aberdeen side and parallel the SBD main with the layout edge. This allowed me to keep the minimum radius at 10".
(Pardon the picture: I took it with my Blackberry on the back porch):
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00011-20110501-1355.jpg)
I installed all of the cork roadbed, the SBD mainline with Atlas code 55 track, and started installing ties for handlaid code 40 for the A&R track. The curved turnout you see at bottom left is not permanently installed, because I still haven't bought that jeweler's saw to cut the necessary rail gaps. But, an order to MBK will likely go in tonight. I have two or three more curved turnouts to build (depending on if the first turnout I built is actually functional) and two #6s. I'll either need to buy a FastTracks #6 template (which would be nice to have in the toolbox), buy some prefab code 40 #6 turnouts, or try to freehand them without a jig. I would prefer to build it myself and don't think I'm proficient enough to build a turnout without a jig yet, so I'll likely have to buy the Fast Tracks template.
Honestly, I think this size layout is appropriate for me: (1) I tend to work very slow; (2) space is a problem at our house for a layout; (3) this is much more manageable for me to practice handlaying track; (4) it's much more likely that I can get a layout this size to a reasonable state of completion; and (5) I'm an admitted roundy-rounder, who is lucky enough to have several RW friends who allow me to get my ops fix satisfied on their excellent layouts. Thanks go out to David K. Smith who designed the plan on a whim but gave me the inspiration to get something accomplished.
DFF
P.S. One thought that just occurred to me as I was editing my post is to add a section about 24" long and 6" (or less) deep to the front, that would allow me to add a two track yard that could hold five or six cars. I would branch off the SBD main with a #7R just to the left of the #7L turnout at the bottom right in the photo above. While I could probably continue that scabbed in piece across the front and get that SOU interchange in, that would likely spaghetti up Aberdeen too much. I'll think about it.
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I tend to work very slow...
I dunno, Dave, considering I posted this whim of a plan less than a week ago, you've gotten further than some fellows I've seen in an equivalent amount of time. Good going--I'll be keeping my eye on this one!
Edit: I've started a new mini-blog for you over on my track plans pages: http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-18.htm
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Dave, you know, you have the perfect-sized layout for setting up at a train show!
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Dave, you know, you have the perfect-sized layout for setting up at a train show!
Yep, which is exactly why I plan to try to do everything right on this little layout. And, one day, when we move to a larger home where I have the room for a larger layout, this one can be repurposed for duty just as you recommended. In other words, it won't go to waste, as Lee feared, and, in the meantime, it will satisfy my roundy-round needs.
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Edit: I've started a new mini-blog for you over on my track plans pages: http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/plan-18.htm
Thanks, David! I'll try to remember to get my digital camera from my other house this week and get better pictures for you.
Now, I've got to go order some materials...
DFF
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Just a minor update. I finally bought a jeweler's saw and was able to cut the rail gaps around the frog on the code 40 turnout that I built a few months ago. The jeweler's saw works great, and I managed to cut the gaps without breaking a blade. I installed the blade, so it cuts on the pull stroke. The key to get the sawblade started without breaking a blade is to use push strokes until a kerf is started. Then, the sawblade will cut easily without hanging up. I also had to do a few push strokes to finish each cut, but each cut only took mere seconds. Nice. I used an Xacto blade to make sure there were no cuttings crossing the gap.
With that completed, I installed the code 40 turnout and transitioned to the code 55 track with the crimped rail joiner method. Here's how the rail joint turned out. The rails are flush and gauge appears to be fine. Preliminary testing of the frog shows smooth operation there. I'll need to extend the rails to be able to really test the operation of the points, but so far, so good.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00054-20110515-1012.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00053-20110515-1011.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/IMG00046-20110515-1006.jpg)
I need some Pliobond applicator tips (on order) and some wood ties (I ran out after the order was placed with Fast Tracks- go figure) to finish the track. But, I have several turnouts to build, so that will take some time anyway, especially at my pace.
DFF
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Nice work Dave!! :)
Just in case you are interested;
I just read a article in Model Railroader (May 2011) on page 42 called Build a headquarters for your railroad.
It's about building the Aberdeen & Rockfish General Office building in HO scale.
There's a nice story along with photos and a materials list.
Even though its HO you should still be able to salvage some ideas.
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Nice work Dave!! :)
Just in case you are interested;
I just read a article in Model Railroader (May 2011) on page 42 called Build a headquarters for your railroad.
It's about building the Aberdeen & Rockfish General Office building in HO scale.
There's a nice story along with photos and a materials list.
Even though its HO you should still be able to salvage some ideas.
Thanks, Glenn. I will need to build that building someday. Our host, John, clued me in on that very article a few weeks ago. However, working at the snail's pace that I do, I'm a long way from building structures. But, I'll keep that article handy for the future.
DFF
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Dave,
I fI read correctly somewhere today you need some tiesm I am in possession of a bag of 1000 "weathered" regular length ties from ,icro Engineering. Since I am not handlaying track at the moment, they are yous if they will help. PM for details.
Otherwise, I hope I can get a tutorial one of these days - this stuff looks fantastic!
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I agree. Everything is looking great so far. Any updates as of yet?
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I agree. Everything is looking great so far. Any updates as of yet?
Thanks for asking, David. Unfortunately, I have nothing new to add for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I am still waiting on a Fast Tracks order with some materials I desperately need. Also, I just sold my townhome and we've been busy with a move.
I hope to be back at it soon. Philip sent me some ties he wasn't using, so I can now finish installing the ties.
Thanks again,
Dave Foxx
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Updates since the last post. I decided to use the code 40 flextrack that I ordered for the HCD generation of the A&R (before it was scrapped and I started this layout) and which finally was received after many, many weeks due to a lost order by the USPS. So, I scraped off the wood ties that I glued down and have started to mess around with flextrack. Micro Engineering flex is much more difficult to work with than Atlas, especially when flexing down to an 10" curve! I still need to build three more turnouts.
Today, I finally got over hemming and hawing and added the small two-track yard seen below. I wanted this element of the HCD layout but needed to add width to the layout. However, a mere 4" in depth was all this required. The yard is the SBD/SOU/A&R interchange.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/DSCF0466.jpg)
Apologies for the poor quality of the picture. I will try to locate my tripod and get some better shots.
DFF
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Hey, all.
It's now October 2011 and I thought that I would like to update everyone on where I am. With the move into my wife's townhome last year, which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too small for us, especially with two houses' worth of furniture and all of our possessions for three (soon to be four!) of us crammed in here. Our baby is due in December, so our plans are to rent a house by February 2012, so we can move out of this townhome and do the renovations it requires to sell it as soon as possible. At a minimum, we're going to need to replace the vinyl floors in the kitchen and three bathrooms, replace the exterior windows and front door, replace the kitchen countertop, sink, and faucet, and replace the bathroom cultured marble tops and faucets. Just too much to do while we're living here, and I really don't want to expose my family to the dangers of serious renovation by trying to live around the remodeling. If it seems like a lot to put into the house just before the sale, you're probably correct. Although, there are presently several townhomes in our neighborhood for sale, so the competition is stiff.
Anyhow, with the tentative move to a new house in the near future, I'm hoping that I can make enough room for my hobby and finally get back to a HCD layout. I obviously will have to keep it portable, especially if we're renting. A HCD layout fits that bill, and I really have been missing the Virginia Central lately. I just flat-out lost interest in working on my tiny 2' x 4.5' layout: the A&R 2.0. I really tired of hving to get out the materials and work on the kitchen table, only to have to put it all away when I finished. So, to be honest, it's already been scrapped. In short, I just need something larger, and a HCD layout suits me perfectly (especially when outfitted with a yard on a 12" HCD as staging).
So, I find myself starting over again. I still love the plan we came up with for the Aberdeen & Rockfish and think it may be one of the most interesting plans I've ever seen on a single door. It actually allows a decent amount of ops. But...
Problem #1: When I started building the A&R 1.0 on a HCD layout, I found that the scenic possibilities were rather sparse. The A&R didn't cross any significant waterways with interesting bridges. There were no tunnels. There's really no interesting feature that screams A&R or the sandhills of North Carolina. I couldn't figure out how to create a layout that was scenically interesting and pleasing to the eye, and I really missed the river crossings on my old Virginia Central layout. Yes, I had one small creek planned on the A&R, but I didn't like how I had to shoehorn it in. But, perhaps, with some planning, I could make some scenic revisions or possibly apply some artistic license to add some interest.
Problem #2: I still have all of my C&O, SBD, RF&P rolling stock and locomotives, and I'm really finding myself wanting to run them more. I've been spoiled by the big-time railroading on seusscaboose's NKP layout in our ops sessions, which I'm not going to get modeling the A&R. So, do I move the modeled area back north to Virginia and finally try to figure out how to put a tiny piece of the RF&P on a HCD? Hello, Doswell, Virginia! Or, do I stick to Aberdeen, North Carolina and change the plan, so that the A&R is the interchange. Either way, I would have to model double track on the HCD. Normally, I would rule that out, but Dr. V has pulled this off successfully with his Juniata Division. If I do decide that I'm being called back to model something in Virginia, at least I don't have a huge amount of cash invested in the A&R fleet. The freight cars can still be used, and I love that A&R paint scheme. I would occasionally use the locos in run-throughs, explaining it as some sort of repayment to SBD for horsepower hours (the A&R did lease or borrow locomotives from SAL and SCL at a time, so this is not a complete stretch of the imagination).
My current brainstorm: Figure out how to model Doswell, Virginia on one side of the HCD, allowing me to run RF&P on the main loop with an interchange to the C&O. This makes practically everything in my fleet relevant again, because SBD, SCL, even Conrail (YUUUUUP!) in later years were run through on the RF&P. On the backside, I could either model a great river crossing on the RF&P's many bridges, or I could model Fredericksburg for ops possibilities, or I could model the C&O's Piedmont Sub (if I could figure out how to disguise the double track loop) which would punch through the scenic divider to interchange at Doswell. The RF&P had trackage rights on the C&O to a paper mill, and there was also a gravel pit that the C&O served with some of those cars being interchanged (and some loaded by truck) at Doswell. If space allowed, I would put Acca Yard on a separate door, and I would love to be able to model Bryan Park Terminal (obviously selectively compressed) where locomotives were serviced. I loved railfanning Bryan Park Terminal when I was in college from 1988-92. I saw all sorts of interesting locos and rolling stock, and Bryan Park Terminal makes for great photo ops for roster shots.
Decisions, decisions... I really want to plan this one out better, so that I stop wasting time and supplies building something that doesn't make me happy and gets thrown in the trash. I had the Virginia Central for years, so I know I can be satisfied by a HCD layout.
DFF
P.S. Ed K., this is partially your fault, because you wrote earlier in the week that your NCR layout received trains from Pot Yard. I have always thought that it was cool when fellow modelers model two separate areas but consider the others' layouts in their ops (the AM, VM, and V&O come to mind). If I model the RF&P, not only can I finally run the Juice Train legitimately, but I can forward cars to Pot Yard where they can be sent your way!
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We could re-establish the Greenspring branch between Lake Roland and Owings Mills to pick up a connection to the WM, too... it would need a time warp wormhole though... 8)
Glad to see you're getting back in the saddle. One consideration, instead of a traditional HCD with a loop, look at the possiblity of stringing together a couple of more or less modular narrow HCD's for a more linear railroad, with a 36" HCD cut in half to create return loops at the ends. If ever there was a linear railroad, it's the RF&P... And the Richmond station was built on a loop anyway, so there you go.
It would also allow you to build it as a shelf style layout along two walls tucked in the corner of whatever the new space is, and supported simply on a couple of Ikea shelves (or even cheaper Walmart or Staples book shelves). The only wildcard would be the corner module, whether it would wrap around an outside corner, or be tucked into an inside corner.
I see, north to south, Doswell and the C&O interchange as the north blob, which if space permits, could be a full 3068 door to maximize the C&O and perhaps a small storage yard. Next would be 12 to 16" wide HCD carrying your main 6'8 down the wall, turning the corner on a customized module as described above, then another 6'8 x 16" to run down the next. You could do one of the shelf modules as open country, or your river crossing and the other as an urban setting with some switching duties. At the south end would be another 3068 door with Richmond Terminal in it's ragged out late 70's appearance, that can be used as a triple track return loop staging with an extra track for a short Amtrak train. Back at the north end, you could build on another 16" L with a stub yard to represent Pot Yards off in the distance. In the end, the effective track plan would be a point to loop, but a simple cut off on the north pod would give you continuous run opportunity.
On the surface, this sounds like a lot, and you may have issues getting a land grant for the whole thing all at once, but if you think modular standards at the connecting points, you could start out with one panel, then gradually add as space and resources permit. Should you flesh the whole thing out in the time you're renting, when it's time to move, you still have a simple modular design that can be easily transported, contracted or expanded when you get to your new space.
Lee
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You have a lot of good suggestions in your last post, Lee. Thanks for taking the time to consider my dilemma.
A shelf layout would be ideal, but I'm just not sure I could build (and finish!) a room-sized layout like you, Eric, and John. A HCD may be more my speed. That said, I have long thought the same thing about modeling from Richmond to Doswell, as you suggested. But, considering we'll likely be going to a rental house for an undetermined period of time before we finally buy a home, the shelf layout's likely not a possibility. At least not yet. It's these problems that have kept me from building an RF&P-themed layout to date.
But, I must find a way. The RF&P's double track racetrack is going to be difficult to do well on a HCD, but I do want a roundy-round. If I can run a train, I'll be more likely to work on the layout. I like the idea of Doswell and the C&O interchange. Maybe if we try to steal the elements of Aberdeen on the A&R 1.0 HCD layout plan, we could model the RF&P running through the door lengthwise and try to figure out how to model the C&O Piedmont Sub as the roundy-round within the confines of a 36" x 80" HCD. With a provision to expand the layout, the double track could be extended to a future shelf layout, and the C&O would remain it's own railroad within the RF&P layout. Sure, this wouldn't allow me to legitimately run the Juice Train yet, but it would be suited and more plausible on a HCD.
DFF
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By the way, the most exciting part of modeling the RF&P is that it solves the problem that I have always had. I like too many southeastern roads that it's difficult to pick one. The RF&P interchanged with a lot of other railroads and saw a number of run-throughs and shared/pool power. In the era that I choose to run (1983-86), I could use RF&P, SBD, C&O, and Conrail legitimately. If I choose to do as Dave Vollmer has done and push back the clock occasionally, I would settle in the 1950s for those cool ACL and SAL paint schemes. The RF&P saw anything from locals to those crack Florida streamliners. Don't forget the Orange Blossom Special (intermodal) and the Juice Train.
DFF
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Start with Doswell, and build a roundy round loop into it, but have the RF&P double track go to the edge of the table for future use. Finesse Doswell to the point that it makes you smile, then get the second narrower door. Make the first one your switching area, so now you have your roundy round with an interchange track or three that can serve as a yard, plus a shelf for some extra switching action. Once that's installed, go around the corner, OR, build Richmond so you can do a longer roundy round utilizing the "racetrack" portion on the switching layout. If you have room, time and resources, add the second shelf, and if necessary, the corner unit to tie it together.
In the bigger scheme of things, look at the townhouse renovation in terms of how much time you anticipate renting. If it's a two year project, plan your temporary layout accordingly. Draw up the four door concept as the best case scenario, and just keep your track geometry standardized to the point where you can add pieces as time and resources permit. I'll whip up some diagrams later to illustrate what I'm talking about.
Lee
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Here's a track plan from 1969: http://www.piedmontsub.com/maps/DoswellMap.jpg
Obviously, I would omit some extraneous track to keep from spaghetti-ing the layout, but imagine that this plan fits on a door that is vertical overlaying this plan. The RF&P double-track mainline parallels the right side of the door. The loop is connected by one single track that swings away from the RF&P at the upper right corner of the door. The C&O tracks would continue around the backside of the HCD from the crossing and form the loop. The C&O/RF&P crossing is pushed as far to the bottom right as possible and allows a 12" shelf to be added perpendicularly, extending the C&O beyond the HCD and allowing the addition of the Bear Island paper mill and/or staging.
The RF&P tracks could always be extended away from the door layout in the future at both ends of the first door. The backside of the layout could have a C&O industry such as the quarry at Verdon: http://www.piedmontsub.com/maps/Verdon1963Map.jpg
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Exactly!
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Dave, check out Norm Wolf's Doswell layout site, http://trainfanatic.blogspot.com/ (http://trainfanatic.blogspot.com/). He's got a roundy/roundy with operations for all the things your are mentioning you'd want to do/like to do. It's in HO, but could be interpreted into a decent shelf layout or maybe a few of the small/bi-fold doors put together. Also, I think Bernie did a plan in MRP 2000 on the Piedmont Subdivision with Doswell in one corner of a bedroom shelf layout (12x12). It was a bedroom layout. I do think Lee's got some good suggestions so far,
Phil
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Thanks for that link, Phil. That really should help provide some inspiration and ideas.
I knew about Bernie's C&O Piedmont Sub plan and always seem to refer back to it. He did what I think may have to do for now: Build the C&O as the working road and the RF&P as the interchange.
DFF
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Dave, would it help if you did a generic VA layout like your last but then had interchangeable structures, some RF&P, some C&O? You could use common foundations and swap them out when you wanted your layout to be one or the other (or even SBD).
My father has talked about doing that for a layout that could be Reading, EL, or NYO&W depending on how he feels... He's been building structures for multiple railroads with similar footprints.
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Dave V.,
Yes, I have considered that, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that I will never build a large room-sized layout. I work too slow and will have young children that are going to take much of my attention for years. So, if I build the Virginia Central 2.0 on a HCD, I think I want to go double track this time, which means that the C&O interchange at Doswell could not be modeled as described in previous posts. If you had to do it over again, would you stay with the double track loop on the HCD? It does seem to work well on your layout where there are the scenic breaks. Between you and me, I really want to model an operating RF&P mainline, no matter how small (i.e., double track loop), because I really want to be able to run intermodals, the Juice Train, and passenger trains. The C&O's Piedmont Sub didn't see that kind of traffic in the 1980s, and I've got all of this RF&P, SBD, and SCL equipment that I want to be able to run. I just need to figure out what two LDEs that I would model on each side of the layout. The obvious is Doswell on one side with an interchange of coal hoppers from the C&O to run to the Possum Point power plant (might be able to figure out a loads-in/empties out operation through a scenic divider) on the other side, which has a nice river crossing that would, unfortunately, require significant selective compression.
I guess that the disadvantage of a double track loop is that I might be setting myself up for another layout doomed to the trash dumpster one day, because the concessions accepted probably wouldn't incorporate well into a larger layout. Lee's right, the RF&P is very linear. So, I need to pick one or the other: build with the plan for expansion or cram in what I need now. Again, I don't foresee me building a room-sized layout. I guess that if one were to think about it, though, a 36" door doesn't really fit all that well into a shelf layout anyway. And, it is possible to recycle much of the layout. You did this when you built the Juniata Division. So, maybe I do just need to try to design a layout that will fit what I want within the confines of a HCD, with allowance for a 12" HCD for staging. Lee's idea to put a wye at one end to allow trains to access the yard from both ends hasn't slipped my mind. If there's one thing that I learned from the Virginia Central 1.0, it's that the 12" HCD for the yard not only saves space on the 36" door by not trying to cram so much in, but it adds tremendously to the ops possibilities. I don't have to explain that to you, though, as I know Enola did the same for you on the attached HCD.
Back to the drawing board!
DFF
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I guess that the disadvantage of a double track loop is that I might be setting myself up for another layout doomed to the trash dumpster one day, because the concessions accepted probably wouldn't incorporate well into a larger layout.
DFF
Maybe... But maybe not. Think about the thought exercise we went through with the Juniata Division... You may be able to design it such that you will only have to do minor trackage changes to absorb it into a larger layout.
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Well, the RF&P is much better suited for a shelf layout, so a design on a door probably won't transition well to a future shelf layout. But, again, I don't think I'll concern myself with that too much, because a HCD layout is really much more manageable for me. And, who knows, when I hit Powerball someday, I won't lose too much sleep about starting over and scrapping yet another layout. Honestly, I would be very happy, if I can get a good five to ten years out of this layout as you have.
DFF
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If I was doing the RF&P, I would want to do the North End thru Alexandria, Va. during the early Amtrak era. That way you could also do the Southern trains that still ran at that time plus all those neat high hoods the Southern had. Guess I spent too much time trackside during those days but damn were there some great trains.
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Bob,
I hear you, and I have always envied the time you were able to spend trackside in Alexandria. Yes, the Southern (and the C&O by trackage rights) came into Potomac Yard next to the RF&P and those roads interchanged with the PRR, B&O, and even D&H. That said, it's cool, but I'll never get any of that on a HCD. Also, I spent my college years railfanning the other end near Richmond, so I'll likely stick to somewhere in the southern half of the RF&P.
DFF
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Dave, check out Norm Wolf's Doswell layout site, http://trainfanatic.blogspot.com/ (http://trainfanatic.blogspot.com/). He's got a roundy/roundy with operations for all the things your are mentioning you'd want to do/like to do. It's in HO, but could be interpreted into a decent shelf layout or maybe a few of the small/bi-fold doors put together. Also, I think Bernie did a plan in MRP 2000 on the Piedmont Subdivision with Doswell in one corner of a bedroom shelf layout (12x12). It was a bedroom layout. I do think Lee's got some good suggestions so far,
Phil
Norm's layout was loosely based on my C&O Piedmont design, but Bob Sprague reworked it for him to focus on the RF&P. It looks good on paper, but in person has too much track for my taste. The problem he has is that there is insufficient room to scenically separate the tracks in the foreground from the staging tracks in back. However, in N scale Norm's plan would work much better in the same foot print as you'd have more room to hide the back tracks etc.
BTW if you need to model HN tower, I did the drawings to modify my A cabin kit to be HN cabin. I have it done in HO, but could do it in N if there was a demand for it.
Bernard Kempinski
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Norm's layout was loosely based on my C&O Piedmont design, but Bob Sprague reworked it for him to focus on the RF&P. It looks good on paper, but in person has too much track for my taste. The problem he has is that there is insufficient room to scenically separate the tracks in the foreground from the staging tracks in back. However, in N scale Norm's plan would work much better in the same foot print as you'd have more room to hide the back tracks etc.
Hi Bernie!
I agree. If done in N scale, his plan would have spread things out little, not to mention add a little mileage to the mainline runs. I'm a fan of less clutter. In other words, less is often more.
BTW if you need to model HN tower, I did the drawings to modify my A cabin kit to be HN cabin. I have it done in HO, but could do it in N if there was a demand for it.
I'd definitely be interested. Would it help, if I took your proposal to the RF&P Historical Society to see if they would be interested in adding an N scale kit of HN Tower to the Company Store (if you haven't already considered and/or done this)?
Thanks,
Dave
P.S. I saw your oNetrak modules on eBay. If only I had enough room and cash. :(
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I gave a talk to the RFPHS last March. I mentioned the HO scale HN tower, but didn't get any interest. It probably would generate more interest if I brought a complete model or even unassembled kits. I haven't done the N Scale one yet.
The oNeTRAK modules are generating some interest, with a couple bids so far. I'm glad they will find a new home instead of being parted out and the wood/scenery going to the dump.
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I was thinking of buying the C&O modules with the idea of tearing up the track and making the right of way a hiking trail...
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I was thinking of buying the C&O modules with the idea of tearing up the track and making the right of way a hiking trail...
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :ashat:
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I was thinking of buying the C&O modules with the idea of tearing up the track and making the right of way a hiking trail...
The bidding is still open, so you can get your shot. But that would not be prototypical. You must be thinking of the WM, as the C&O Mtn Sub is still an active line, nearly as scenic and wonderful as ever. I say nearly because they have daylighted some of the tunnels and took out many of the cool C&O structures. But steel flanges still squeal on steel rails on Afton Mtn.
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I bid it up to 200 .. then the budget window closed
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Lol @ $200. Good luck on the bidding, wish they fit into my plans/interests.
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...I was being ironic, Bernie...
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(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/RFP.jpg)
Here's a rough drawing of a planned RF&P layout on two hollow-core doors (36" x 80" with a 12" x 80" shelf). Note that each line in the grid equals 3". The yard would represent Acca Yard in Richmond, Virginia. In my era, the Seaboard System interchanges here. I wish there was more room to do the Bryan Park Terminal (locomotive facility) justice, but, oh well.
On the larger door is Doswell, Virginia and Ashland, Virginia. Poorly represented on this drawing is the street running that is in Ashland. In Doswell, the C&O interchanges with the RF&P. Minimum radius on the mainline is 13.75" on the inner (southbound) loop and 15" on the outer (northbound) loop. A backdrop separates the scenes. Not yet drawn on the plan, but, conveniently, Route 1 provides an overpass just west of the Doswell crossing that could be used to disguise the C&O tracks running into the backdrop. The area is rolling hills, and I do plan to shoehorn in a creek crossing (bridge scene), because the RF&P crossed many tributaries that all fed into the Chesapeake Bay.
This is my first real attempt at designing a layout, so I'm open to ideas and constructive criticism. Thoughts?
DFF
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The only thing I would add would be some provision for a run around on the Doswell side. This would open up some flexibility in the industrial tracks so you could do some trailing and facing point sidings.
Otherwise, it's a great, compact design that can be used for display running as well as some interesting ops.
Lee
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The only thing I would add would be some provision for a run around on the Doswell side. This would open up some flexibility in the industrial tracks so you could do some trailing and facing point sidings.
Lee,
I had that same thought about the passing track in Doswell, but I was trying to avoid adding too much track. Since this would be likely operated by only me, I could run a lap and use the crossover in Ashland. If, however, things fit a little better than the software allowed me to place track, I'll add a passing siding.
Thanks,
DFF
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It doesn't need to be a passing siding, per se. You could actually throw a run around into one of the industrial tracks and leave the main alone.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Doswell.JPG)
With the relatively small capacity of the spurs, you really only need to scoot around a car or two. Especially once you get that sexy RF&P MP-15 that you know you want...
Lee
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Interesting idea and not unlike the trackage at Doswell. There's actually a small yard there. Thanks for the suggestion! When I get the chance this weekend, I'll tweak the plan to see what will fit. Heh, might require two custom curved turnouts, so I maybe I can put that FastTracks template that I bought for the A&R to work on this layout.
The RF&P actually had SW1500s, which as you know, are sexy, especially with Flexicoil trucks for mainline running, except that apparently nobody is ever going to manufacture one in N scale. :RUEffinKiddingMe:
Dave
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Yep
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/rkbufkin/4847830-R1-E111.jpg)
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Bob,
Feel free to post any of your sweet RF&P photos in this thread anytime you want. By the way, I don't mind your shots of other roads (e.g., C&O, PRR/PC/CR, and Southern) in and around Pot Yard either.
Thanks!
Dave
P.S. If only I knew to photograph what I saw on the RF&P in the late 1980s-early 1990s before its flag fell. :(
P.P.S. Bob, that reminds me: I get to start collecting intermodal equipment again!
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Lee's suggestion of adding the runaround in Doswell has caused me to do some further brainstorming. I think, with a couple of custom curved turnouts, that I could fit the runaround in the Doswell plan, as he suggested. But, I also went back and looked at a previous draft of the plan that I've been working on. In this version, the one side of the HCD was Fredericksburg, instead of Doswell. I think this is probably less cluttered and, perhaps, has more ops potential. Other "pros" are that I tried to avoid running parallel to the table's edge and I could add a sweet, superelevated cosmetic curve to the mainline through Fredericksburg. The downsides are that I lose the C&O connection and what I think would be better photo opportunities in Doswell. Interestingly, the Virginia Central, yes, that's correct, the Virginia Central once interchanged with the RF&P in Fredericksburg.
Here's that earlier draft:
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/RFP2-1.jpg)
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
DFF
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I think the one that Lee suggested a run around track on looks cooler Dave.
Something about those crossovers parallel to each other just looks kind of train set like if that makes sense.
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It makes perfect sense, Bryan. Those could be moved around possibly to correct that issue. I was also thinking that another set of crossovers in Fredericksburg would also allow a runaround on the outer main, too.
But, like you, I thought that Doswell seemed more interesting. I just wanted to show some other possibilities and get some guidance/feedback from my fellow asshats, just in case others felt that Doswell was impractical.
Thanks,
DFF
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/rfp4.gif)
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By the way, for those following along, this is Doswell. Unfortunately, it appears that I clipped off the crossing at lower right. You can see a dead-end road to the curved track in the wye that represents where the gravel loader used to be. U.S. Route 1 is visible at far left, which shows that overpass that I mentioned in a previous post. This would be very useful against the backdrop. The former C&O/RF&P passenger station is visible near the crossing at lower right. If there were room (doubtful), I would also model the C&O freight station that no longer exists inside the wye. I think my plan incorporates the major elements of this area. Of course, there's a lot of track left out, but, hey, it's on a HCD!
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/Doswell.jpg)
Here's Ashland. You can see the double-track mainline that practically runs in the streets of Ashland. Also visible is the Amtrak station, giving me a destination for N scale passengers on the layout (I've been looking for an excuse to get an F40PH, but I'll need Kato to reissue the Amtoobs in Phase III paint).
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/Ashland.jpg)
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/rfp4.gif)
DKS,
WOW!!! :o That looks great! And, I know that I can build those curved turnouts, which can save a lot of space. Unfortunately, the track planning software I used (Empire Express on a Macbook) didn't have curved turnouts in the library.
Oh, man, I can't wait to get started. Cyn and I are planning to move out of my wife's two-bedroom townhome around February. We'll need extra room when the baby arrives in December and joins her brother. I'm not-so-secretly going to look for a place that allows room for a layout. Part of the reason that I'm going with a HCD layout again is because we'll be renting until we sell the townhome. I want portability. Since it took fifteen months to sell my old townhouse earlier this year, I expect that it will take a while to sell this one, too.
Thanks (again)!
DFF
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Dave, my pleasure. Be sure to refresh the page; I flipped the branch on the Ashland side to reflect reality a little better, after having checked out Google Maps.
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/rfp4.gif)
I think I see what you see, assuming your looking at the sawed-off building on England Street and the obvious shrubbery growing in an arc away from the tracks to almost parallel that street. As I looked closer, it started to appear as if there was actually a wye here at some point.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/AshlandWye.jpg)
So, I googled "ashland rf&p wye" and came up with this website that confirms that a wye did in fact exist here to turn the Ashland Accommodation Train back towards Richmond: http://ashlandmuseum.org/explore-online/trains/after-1923/
Anyhow, your plan is more exact, but I wonder if it would be better to get the siding away from the table edge and use up some of that dead space in the middle of the plan for an industry of some sort (applying modeler's license to add ops opportunity). I'm also considering moving the backdrop towards Ashland to accomplish two things. First, there will be wasted space behind the row of buildings across the tracks from the table's edge. Second, that real estate may be put to better use to try to squeeze in more of the wye in Doswell.
Ooh, brainstorm! Stay tuned!
DFF
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Well I can't figure out my own projects, so I'll throw something out to you instead. Let me just say, I am not nearly as talented as David Smith, so it's not quite as pretty, but you get the idea.
I would move the backdrop closer to the Ashland side and have it at an angle. You could get the depot in there, along with the road that runs behind it and put some town shops in. I would then use those shops to hide a single staging track for the diamond in Doswell. I did not put in the overpass, but I agree that it would help to hide the wye transition into the backdrop. Maybe put a mirror at the stub track, then the crossing track enters the backdrop to stage a short train. I have no idea where this is at, but looking at the maps it looks like both loop openings would just be trees, with the bulk of your focus in the center. Also, by stretching the prototype and putting a curved turnout at the begining of the wye, you can move the crossing over a little bit and I think you could fit the depot there too.
Here it is:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bXmkIMq5v74/TrSYGJj9s1I/AAAAAAAAAQA/x_bU0vJHY58/s768/Ashland.jpg)
Good luck on your build!
Mike
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I like a lot of elements in DKS' plan, but I was lazy and didn't feel like gutting my plan yet to make it all work. I'm also somewhat limited, because, again, Empire Express doesn't have a curved turnout in its catalog, which makes DKS' plan very difficult to copy on this software. However, all I really wanted to see at this point was whether I could connect the wye and use the "siding"in Ashland for a disguised return loop.
Now, the layout can become an out-and-back when no one's looking, OR the wye could be used for loads-in/empties-out type of switching (Doswell to Ashland and vice versa). The minimum radius was 11" to pull this off, but the prototype has a really sharp curve, too. I'll also bury some of the wye in the weeds and heavily disguise it, so to minimize the spaghetti bowl look.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/RFP4.jpg)
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Thanks, Mike! I was thinking about using a curved turnout near the crossing, too, because that might help save space to get the trackage in Doswell to fit better. Admittedly, it is going to be tight and at this rate, I will need to build at least three curved turnouts. Oh well, at least the FastTracks investment I made several months ago won't be going to waste.
I agree about moving the backdrop towards Ashland, because more real estate is needed in Doswell. By the way, in the real world, the streets in Ashland flank the railroad tracks with a one-way street going each way on each side of the tracks. Talk about a great place to watch trains.
Thanks again,
Dave
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(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/rfp4a.gif)
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Suh-weet! It fits! I can absolutely live with that plan. It gets me close enough that I can tweak the design as I build it. It may seem odd looking, but connecting that loop allows for a working C&O interchange with more car capacity.
Unfortunately, I realized last night that my Fast Tracks Templates are for Code 40 rail. Other than the curved turnouts, I'm planning to use Atlas Code 55 track on this layout, so that I can get the track down and trains running quickly. Hopefully, I can build the curved turnouts without having to buy another template. Those things are expensive. Since I can't really start construction of the layout until after the move, perhaps I can at least get started on the custom track pieces.
What's the radii of those turnouts? Is that set to match Atlas' curved turnouts?
Thanks for your help,
Dave
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This should be a groovy layout to see come together.
You'll have a lot of fun using the scenic divider and using all sorts of tricks to disguise & "expand" the area of your layout & the distance between the two sides.
I think you mean your Fasttrack jigs (not templates) are for Code 40?
Do you really need the metal jig?
I just print out the template I need from their site onto cardstock, spray with adhesive, and then fix the pc board ties directly to the template:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3USoMC8Q9Lc/TrU9McZAKbI/AAAAAAAACBI/X8T7Y9Eb1P0/s640/P8270309.JPG)
That acts as the jig without the $100 price tag.
(You do have to be a little more careful placing the rails, but with your NMRA gauge buddy you'll get it in no time).
And this way allows you to do multiple-turnout fixtures easily:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ebwAqZtNygM/TrU9MMjg3TI/AAAAAAAACBE/_qQgfqT2uhw/s640/P8280336.JPG)
Anyway, looking forward to seeing your progress.
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I think you mean your Fasttrack jigs (not templates) are for Code 40?
Do you really need the metal jig?
I just print out the template I need from their site onto cardstock, spray with adhesive, and then fix the pc board ties directly to the template:
M.C.,
Oops, I did mean jig. Sorry for any confusion.
Like Chris333's, your trackwork is nothing short of amazing. I just don't know if I have the talent to be successful in building turnouts without the jigs. They seem to provide me the third hand that I need while soldering. That said, I do already have the tools and materials, so it can't hurt to try, right? My real concern will be filing the points and the stock rails correctly. If I were able to use my stock and point tools for Code 55 rail, that would alleviate most of my concerns. I just don't have enough experience yet to be able to eyeball it the way you guys do. But, practice makes perfect, so I'll likely give it a shot. Besides, that will give me something to do until I can start the layout.
Thanks,
DFF
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Mount the paper template to a piece of homasote (I have scads of scraps big enough) that allows you to use spikes to hold the rails as you solder. It's been a long time since I've done one this way, but it works well.
Lee
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Mount the paper template to a piece of homasote (I have scads of scraps big enough) that allows you to use spikes to hold the rails as you solder. It's been a long time since I've done one this way, but it works well.
Lee
That's actually a really good idea. Next time I'm down your way for an ops session, I'll steal one of those scraps from you.
On another note, I went digging into my toolbox and confirmed that my point and stockrail tools are useful for both Code 40 and 55, so these can thankfully be reused. The jigs are Code 40 only, so I'll have to try M.C.'s way of building the turnout over a paper template. If I had any Code 55 rail, I'd make an attempt this weekend. Looks like I'll have to place an order with MBK for some track.
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So, Dave, how hard to I have to twist your arm to get you to start a blog for this project? I'll even help you get started...
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So, Dave, how hard to I have to twist your arm to get you to start a blog for this project? I'll even help you get started...
Gosh, I dunno. I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' blogs. ;)
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Gosh, I dunno. I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' blogs. ;)
It's about as hard as using Railwire. You post pics one place, text another, and tie 'em together as needed. That's about it. Sound doable?
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Don't place an order for rail. I have enough shards and damaged flex c55 track to choke a horse. Just have to figure out how to get it to you conveniently... Maybe I can hire a courier stork that might already have your house on the manifest in the coming weeks...
Lee
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Don't place an order for rail. I have enough shards and damaged flex c55 track to choke a horse. Just have to figure out how to get it to you conveniently... Maybe I can hire a courier stork that might already have your house on the manifest in the coming weeks...
Lee
That'd be great! I was looking at ordering some flextrack from MBK, but it looks as if one must order 25 pieces when being shipped. I know you can buy them by the stick in the store, but that's a couple hours' round trip. At the same time, I won't need 25 pieces for at least a few months.
I wouldn't mind the rails in about 15-18" lengths, so you could cut the longer pieces down, if that would help with shipping. Obviously, I'm willing to pay for shipping. By the way, the stork is due to arrive in about one month. YIKES!
DFF
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It's about as hard as using Railwire. You post pics one place, text another, and tie 'em together as needed. That's about it. Sound doable?
Sure. If successful, I can be the posterchild for blogging: "So easy, a doofus can do it."
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I tweaked the plan, based on earlier discussion. But, this plan only needs one curved turnout. Looks like it should be about a #8 with a 16" outer and 12" inner radii. A template for that size turnout is available for download from the Fast Tracks site. Nice.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/dff21901/RFP-1.jpg)
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Dave, can you move the switch for the two sidings at Doswell from the passing siding to the "loop"? I think this would allow the sidings to be just a scratch longer by shifting them to the left of the road.
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I don't think so, because the loop has a fairly tight curve that the curved side of a turnout won't even come close to matching. Although the software doesn't allow it, I can cut approximately 2" off of the point end of Atlas #5 turnouts, which will save a lot of space. I butchered quite a few #5s on the Virginia Central to squeeze things in. By trimming all three #5s in the Doswell siding, I think I'll be able to lengthen those two stub tracks a bit. Worst case scenario, if things don't fit as well on the layout, will be to only put one stub siding in
DFF
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The plan's lookin' groovy.
As for the curved turnout, you don't need to spike down the rail (though if it makes you feel better...)
Just place a small piece of solder between the rail and pcboard tie and hold the rail with your fingers while soldering.
If you haven't checked out Evert's "How to Build a Custom Curved Turnout" video tutorial, you should.
http://www.youtube.com/thebige61#g/c/39AF9D2D08FCF4EA (http://www.youtube.com/thebige61#g/c/39AF9D2D08FCF4EA)
He takes you through every step (and I mean every step, whether you want to or not), and you just ignore the part where he lays out the turnout on the computer and substitute the Fast Tracks template.
There's little to compare to the satisfaction of watching your trains roll through a custom curved turnout that you built yourself.
(the birth of your child will be a close second ;) )
Anyway, I encourage you to try it out a couple times.
The first will probably not be the most glorious piece of work, but the second or third will be groovy.
Good luck!
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The C&O interchange track looks kind of short. Maybe you could throw a curved switch in there and run a longer interchange track along the main, towards the bridge/water where it would stub-end.
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The C&O interchange track looks kind of short. Maybe you could throw a curved switch in there and run a longer interchange track along the main, towards the bridge/water where it would stub-end.
Thanks for responding, Michael. Actually, as best as I can tell, that track didn't seem to be used much, at least for handing off cars. North of the crossing on the real RF&P was a small yard, so most, if not all, cars interchanged through that yard and went around the track that is represented by the "loop" on my layout.
DFF
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A little something to slobber over. This is located down at Cape Charles, VA.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mydYzpjfZE8/SJHexZ7H2RI/AAAAAAAABJY/rAzXZ1Zejgs/s912/Cape%2BCharles%252C%2BVA%2B%252829%2529.jpg)
I've got that rail bundled up. Just need a shipping address and/or a place to make the drop.
Lee
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A little something to slobber over. This is located down at Cape Charles, VA.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mydYzpjfZE8/SJHexZ7H2RI/AAAAAAAABJY/rAzXZ1Zejgs/s912/Cape%2BCharles%252C%2BVA%2B%252829%2529.jpg)
Splurt! :)
I've got that rail bundled up. Just need a shipping address and/or a place to make the drop.
Check your PM. Thanks!
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Wheels Of Time should run down there and measure that car.