TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: InterurbanModels on April 12, 2025, 11:46:09 AM
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Good news first: The Baldwin-Westinghouse Class B has passed the proof of concept stade, coming nicely from the workbench. The bad news: don't even think about putting a motor in this. The Class B is so tiny that no commercially available drive could actually fit.
Years ago someone made a Class D, a similar looking but far bigger B-W locomotive, motorized with a Bandai drive, but this drive is no longer available. I will keep on searching, in the meantime its just a rolling model (and perhaps a case to make one of this shameful motorized boxcars or cabooses ... :facepalm:)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-120425113345.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47124)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-120425113433.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47125)
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Has anyone talk to you about our Lord and savior Kato Shorty B? :D :D
Amazon.com
https://www.amazon.com
Kato 11-107 Driving Unit For B Train Shorty Commuter Train 2
IMHO, some of the best kit bash fodder ever. These chassis were the bases for my class B climax build.
This looks like a project I may want to tackle. Do you have an ability to sell these prints yet?
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Kato 11-107 Driving Unit
I will purchase an 11-107 (or 105) and build something around, probably a Class D, precious 3ft longer than a class B. With some compromising around the off-center hoods this should work. But in the meantime I will prepare a Class B rolling model kit for sale (minus the 36" MTL wheel sets)
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Have a look at the tomix / tomytec motorized chassis / mechanisms (they have a wider variety than Kato). They produce a slightly longer version of a similar model to yours. You would have to shorten the mechanism or 3D print one and use the parts. They run as well as the Kato
Plaza Japan Search:
https://www.plazajapan.com/search-results/?q=tomytec+motorised+chassis
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...snip...
The bad news: don't even think about putting a motor in this.
...snip
Is that a challenge? :)
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Is that a challenge? :)
Hold my beer :)
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Jim and Max:
motor AND sound, or it doesn't count. :D
John C.
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@Jim Starbuck and @mmagliaro in a power train race? We’re not worthy.
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@Jim Starbuck and @mmagliaro in a power train race? We’re not worthy.
I would add @randguest to this, also.
He's built some very small climax's
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Good news first: The Baldwin-Westinghouse Class B has passed the proof of concept stade, coming nicely from the workbench. The bad news: don't even think about putting a motor in this. The Class B is so tiny that no commercially available drive could actually fit.
From what I have seen on this forum that model has room for a motor and even maybe a DCC decoder. :)
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Ha, a challenge!
"No drive" means no actually commercial available drive (Kato, Tomytec), even butchered. Of course you can make a custom drive (I did that already, but I was not amused). That's not an option if you want to make the model available for others. The off-center hood means that there is no room for a turning gear tower attached to the trucks.
There was a short Bandai 8 wheel drive years ago with very low sitting fixed worms, the next gear swiveling with the truck under it. Nearly an under floor drive. But currently there is no way to get them.
In few days I will receive a Kato 11-105, then we will see what could be done. I will look towards a Baldwin-Westinghouse Class D, 6 mm longer (in N scale) than the Class B.
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Wonder if it would be possible to make an N scale Stanton drive with a pager motor. Or something like a Hobbytown with a center mounted vertical motor and 2 worm shafts to the trucks under the body.
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I’d be happy to release these gears if you’d release the frame you build around it as stl’s otherwise take this as inspiration that this is doable.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/2564-150425084110.jpeg)
These are 0.3 mod gears that are resin printable. The height of the blue box is 6.6mm 5.8mm wide. I didn’t know your axle distance measurement. I guessed it at 13mm.
The cool thing about this design is that the worms can be moved up and down the shaft easily the only thing that’d need changing is the top bevel gear. Let me know if there is interest here.
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Do both worms spin the same way?
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I’d be happy to release these gears if you’d release the frame you build around it as stl’s otherwise take this as inspiration that this is doable.
These are 0.3 mod gears that are resin printable. The height of the blue box is 6.6mm 5.8mm wide. I didn’t know your axle distance measurement. I guessed it at 13mm.
The cool thing about this design is that the worms can be moved up and down the shaft easily the only thing that’d need changing is the top bevel gear. Let me know if there is interest here.
Tim,
Beautiful work! I love this kind of innovation.
The days of “I can’t build (insert specific model) because there’s no drive available for it” are fading in the distance behind us.
Jim
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Do both worms spin the same way?
With this setup the worms would turn opposite directions. You could remove one of the worm bevel gears and run a common shaft with both worms on it to get them to run the same.
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Do both worms spin the same way?
DOH!!! :ashat: Nice catch @Chris333 ... lemme fix that!
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With this setup the worms would turn opposite directions. You could remove one of the worm bevel gears and run a common shaft with both worms on it to get them to run the same.
Or reverse the angle of one of the worms (whatever the technical term for that angle is).
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I would not transmit traction torque through the truck center. Technically, a self contained N scale motor bogie with a micro motor should be possible. Something like this, but with double shaft:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-150425145436.png) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47156)
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Interurban...
Do you have any drawings, or basic dimensions, you could post on this thing? Like the truck wheelbase, wheel diameter, truck sideframe
dimensions? It would help (all of us, I'm sure) to have some specifics as we mull over options and mechanical limitations of powering
this thing.
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Also that chassis would only have a 12:1 gear ratio. So it could either be fast or very fast. A good start would be 50:1 or higher.
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I would not transmit traction torque through the truck center. ...
Hadn't thought about that - but the old Atlas/Rivarrossi E8 and FM C-liner did this (vertical worm), and it was terrible! The torque would rotate the truck and cause derailments unless you were very gentle with the throttle, which was tough to do on those engines.
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Interurban...
Do you have any drawings, or basic dimensions...
Yes, of course. Give me two days to extract the essentials. Also, on Thursday I will recieve my Kato 11-105, so we can see if there is a way with this.
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Yes, of course. Give me two days to extract the essentials. Also, on Thursday I will recieve my Kato 11-105, so we can see if there is a way with this.
Thank you!
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You mean something more like this?
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/2564-150425191809.png)
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Yessir!
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There is also this version with ball bearings. It's louder than the no bearing version but runs more smoothly.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/2564-150425200949.png)
Let me know and I will show video of it running
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I would not transmit traction torque through the truck center. Technically, a self contained N scale motor bogie with a micro motor should be possible. Something like this, but with double shaft:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-150425145436.png) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47156)
That to me looks like a stepper motor. Is it a standard permanent magnet DC motor?
DC motor will have 2 leads, while stepper motors will have 3 or more leads.
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There is also this version with ball bearings. It's louder than the no bearing version but runs more smoothly.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/2564-150425200949.png)
Let me know and I will show video of it running
So this would be for a self-contained power truck, not a single motor driving both (swiveling) trucks??
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-120425113345.jpeg)
Looking at the shape of the model's shell I not sure there is enough room for this mechanism in the end "hoods". The hoods are also off-center. I think a conventional single motor in the center design would be a more realistic option.
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https://d24rugpqfx7kpb.cloudfront.net/SCM/26AD0E1B8C66D0656FFE5EA5B014A996/0018_0020instr.pdf
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With this setup the worms would turn opposite directions. You could remove one of the worm bevel gears and run a common shaft with both worms on it to get them to run the same.
Great point Jim this is much simpler/reliable. I fixed it. I did make a version with the worm and gears reversed on the opposite side as well.
[attachimg=1]
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https://d24rugpqfx7kpb.cloudfront.net/SCM/26AD0E1B8C66D0656FFE5EA5B014A996/0018_0020instr.pdf
The shift in units made my head spin for a second as I zoomed in to make sure those were inches on one view and mm on the other view!
Bob
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The shift in units made my head spin for a second as I zoomed in to make sure those were inches on one view and mm on the other view!
Bob
Yeah I deal with that all day at work.
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NASA lost a Mars probe by doing that. One part was programmed in American, the other in Metric. Missed Mars completely.
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The Kato 11-105 trucks have somewhat of a fatal flaw in that the center gear tower places the shaft and universal inboard quite a distance, the center of the trucks swings that universal left and right, leaving very little room in the middle for a motor and driveshaft.
But if you take a look at the solution Kato came up with in the NW2, you should get an idea; that's more or less the same design, but the driveshaft connecting the trucks has a vertical spur gear and the motor is above the driveshaft. Don't get all hung up on the split gear thing, just look at the concept. The 11-105 trucks should work, the Kato approach of putting the motor above the driveshaft with a spur 'might work', and also get you reduction and torque you need.
Note on the NW2 also how LOW the truck driveshaft ended up, another point. Vertical clearance for the motor.
On the 11-105's, look at the driveshaft. It can be cut, shortened, and spliced with a tiny bit of brass square tubing drilled out to .040 and reset with ACC. I have to do that on all my Climax models with the 25:1 gearhead drives to fit, it's REALLY a tight squeeze. That gets me one truck drive and 25:1 reduction, about 15mph top speed, and yes, the motor can be shucked over to one side. I'm using the Solarbotics GM15A, that's my go-to gearhead and motor, dirt cheap.
I was seriously looking at this NW2 approach to do my Heisler as I have to have two-truck drive, and I might do it yet. If Kato had made those NW2 motor/gearboxes available, I might have even done a kit, but despite directly reaching out with a proposal, no such luck. But that's how you get a short wheelbase truck system to work on both trucks powered if you have some vertical carbody distance.
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Yes, Kato NW2 and also RDC trucks use a low profile design, but the wheelbases are too long for this model (those trucks look like they have a freight truck's wheelbase).
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/19/2700-030920162004-197731833.jpeg)
I've been thinking if this rather short vehicle really needs swiveling trucks? Why not make it solid 4-axle wheelbase and just add separate trucks sideframes to make it appear like it has 2 swiveling trucks?
Also, only the end hoods are off-center the main body is full width and centered.
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The conceptual design I used for my Heisler was lucky in that I could fit the motor high up in the cab and clear the driveshafts off the 11-105 trucks instead of the NW2 trucks. Don't know if that might help here, but an alternate approach if you really want two-truck drive.
But a 6mm 3V gearhead (with a 100 ohm dropping resistor) on the 11-105 single truck drive will undoubtedly work even if you have to shuck the little motor/gearhead over to one side. I've built dozens of Climax models that way, and my 25-ton Shay had to deal with the sideways offset issue.
Normally you'd never get away with a series resistor; the original Kato 11-105's used those and they were a complete turkey, the resistors would heat up on full slip, difficult to control under load. But in a gearhead, the draw is greatly reduced and torque is higher, so the series resistor is stable rather than either overheating or fluctuating motor voltage under load. Now the Kato 11-105's use a 12v motor, but that legacy circuit board is there because it used to have the resistor on it.
The other oddball mechanism that probably won't work for this application but deserved mention as Tomytec is rerunning it is the ED01, that's an end-axle pickup, short truck, incredibly short 8x8 drive. Plaza Japan is taking preorders again for like $26 each (instead of Ebay extortion), I got a couple, that's the only way I can get 8x8 in my Whitcomb kit, worked quite well.
https://www.plazajapan.com/4543736256663/?srsltid=AfmBOoo6QKy5nIhJLhpXu8zxYRNoJWW5m2eKAZyxEdEniZ5OkJMS-nNV
If I thought Tomytec would stick with this darn thing instead of discontinuing it periodically I'd go all out on my Whitcomb kits again.
As far as fixed four-axle, well, depends on your curves. Atlas did their 4-4-0 tender that way, it's not crazy.
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As expected, the Kato 11-105 (or 107) could not fit, even if it is not so far away. Once the white motor cover removed, there is a little more space. Perhaps relocating the motor to the center could bring some relief to make place for the gangway beside the off-center hood.
The off center hood means that in fact you must design the drive like there is nearly no hood at all.
Keep in mind that I would like to create a motorization that could be build with basic tools by everyone.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425111914.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47207)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425112017.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47208)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425112041.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47209)
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General dimensions (scale 1:1, grid spacing = 12"). Truck center distance is 192", Wheelbase 78"
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425113103.png) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47210)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425113446.png) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47211)
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I started a 45T looooong ago and used the Kato worm enclosure as the blower motor. A bunch of us here have shortened those drive shafts.
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I started a 45T looooong ago and used the Kato worm enclosure as the blower motor. A bunch of us here have shortened those drive shafts.
Crap I still have it. Built this 15+ years ago. Sorry for the dust.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPjSVk-rxKMfVp_91bMRIUL3aNFzv0VImcNTjxzbkY7Gq7ZiMFXDMxgQzdABvmtgPCkV-sR_ucjMI0voLr6AUNKAm2wSVVQ4B_kx_wcds25jzn1GJxnJaYxL7RCFnwAlEgzs_kdHhO2kk82xOxRc76XpA=w1000-h677-s-no-gm?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNimDRySSODgTe2lbXf4K5_aNrqU7SHZn1qx2fOG6D0LoWfAPHYstwRv0uu-S1k5lMoBAqGstaJumf_eRYj5z3fuIsyBCFDuWzGkod96nmiBSCQ7h5HIyoxyecin01Uo0n-BIUO2JtMjhIBkeF8E96NDA=w1000-h583-s-no-gm?authuser=0?.jpg)
What it should look like:
https://resourcedrails.com/cdn/shop/files/DSC_5902_1024x1024@2x.jpg
https://resourcedrails.com/cdn/shop/files/DSC_5923_1024x1024@2x.jpg
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As expected, the Kato 11-105 (or 107) could not fit, even if it is not so far away. Once the white motor cover removed, there is a little more space. Perhaps relocating the motor to the center could bring some relief to make place for the gangway beside the off-center hood.
The off center hood means that in fact you must design the drive like there is nearly no hood at all.
Keep in mind that I would like to create a motorization that could be build with basic tools by everyone.
You can shorten the driveline by eliminating the couplings and driveshaft altogether and installing the worm directly to the motor shaft. This will move the motor more central where there’s room. Still retain the worm cover which keeps the truck attached to the chassis. The worm will reside inside the cover but won’t be attached at all. The truck can still pivot with the truck gear engaged with the worm.
With the chassis being so short the truck doesn’t need to pivot much if at all.
I’ve used this technique several times but also mounted the geared truck solid to the chassis and let the other truck pivot. Too much emphasis gets put on the truck needing to swivel with these short mechanisms.
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Too much emphasis gets put on the truck needing to swivel with these short mechanisms.
Exactly!
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No no no ! This is for Traction modeling !
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/47/7349-180425130204.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47220)
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This is the chassis I designed for the North Shore 456 project. Cast resin, used Tomytec trucks (which are too wide at the base to fit yours, for sure) but this is what I mean about using the Kato drive with a gearhead motor that could achieve an offset.
(http://www.randgust.com/45615%20chassis%204.jpg)
link: http://www.randgust.com/45615%20chassis%204.jpg
That was the battery powered one so I had a nose I designed a cast weight for. The narrow nose straight electric was too narrow for the trucks.
(http://www.randgust.com/45611%20finished%204.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/45611%20finished%204.jpg
A blend of Chris' 11-105 and my gearhead drive would be primo. If you don't use a gearhead you'll have a little rocket.
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This is the chassis I designed for the North Shore 456 project. Cast resin, used Tomytec trucks (which are too wide at the base to fit yours, for sure) but this is what I mean about using the Kato drive with a gearhead motor that could achieve an offset.
That was the battery powered one so I had a nose I designed a cast weight for. The narrow nose straight electric was too narrow for the
A blend of Chris' 11-105 and my gearhead drive would be primo. If you don't use a gearhead you'll have a little rocket.
The pair (455-456) still run great btw.
Randy
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So anyway I've designed resin chassis to work with these concepts, what shut me down was that the designer at Shapeways designed to size, not practicality, with the narrow nose width. I've seen this before in several models that work backwards from a 'perfect scale' rendering and then try to jam a mechanism in in. You need to figure out your mechanism before you design your body as just a rather minor dimensional tweak can make it feasible or make it impossible. Expecially on sills, coupler pockets, interior clearances.
My all time winner was the Alco MRS1 shell, I got it to work, but almost shattered it getting it on a chassis.