TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: Sokramiketes on September 21, 2022, 11:24:56 PM
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The MTL five pack of heavyweight Missouri Pacific cars sent me on a tangent. I’d like to model a Colorado Eagle, and like the idea of including the Thrift-T-Sleepers.
The available Centralia Car Shops sleepers in Eagle colors are sort of my starting point on what the correct colors should be. So I’m trying to color correct the MTL cars to match. At least in the hall park.
The blue is going to be hard to darken without screwing up the lettering. So I’m concentrating on the warm gray window band and a darker gray roof. Tamiya makes two great colors in their aircraft line so you can knock this out in about 10 mins a car. Disassemble, mask, and spray.
EDIT: Keep reading below about roof color, correct Tamiya shades are AS-7 (roof) and AS-16(window band)
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Someone who knows Missouri Pacific can probably chime in with other appropriate cars. But here’s what seems to be out there:
WoT heavyweight baggage (T&P released in Eagle colors. Very close to MP baggage cars)
Centralia 6-6-4’s
Centralia 10-5 (PRR sleeper in Eagle paint)
MTL Thrift T Sleeper(s)
RailSmith coaches (pending release)
Looks like Union Station will have some of the specialty cars with distinctive portholes.
Here’s why the colors on the heavyweights need to shift:
[attachimg=1]
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You are taking on a tough task, there are no MP eagle passenger car decals made in N. Russell Higginbotham (Red River Models) made some on a on demand basis, but I sadly didn't grab any before he passed away. You could probably re use striping from the Microscale set for the eagle diesels, but lettering will be a custom job.
The other non Con Cor factory painted car you missed is the Walthers smooth side coach.
The other killer for MP trains in any scale is everything that wasn't a head end car, a rebuit heavyweight, a sleeper or secondhand had porthole windows for things like the washrooms, kitchens or dorm space. So to go exactly correct you will need to use car sides like Union Station Products or kitbash existing cars. Even the HO guys get hung up on this.
You have found the color issue already, but I think your solution is good. I just wish manufacturers would stop using the same gray on the sides and roof, the sides were more or a cream color, the roofs were gray. I'll do a 2nd post on the Colorado Eagle consist.
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First off, if you have a copy of Greg Stout's "Route of the Eagles: Missouri Pacific in the streamline era", or can borrow one, it will be a big help. It has a chapter on the Colorado Eagle specifically and is the primary source for what I'm about to post. Patrick Dorin's book "Missouri Pacific Passenger Trains- The Postwar Years" is also a good resource for photos of equipment.
The original 1942 Colorado Eagle cars were 2 sets built by Budd with each train having a baggage, a baggage/mail, a dorm coach, a 56 seat coach, and a diner. MP got 4 6-6-4 sleepers from PS to round out the trains. The Budd cars are similar to the Kato cars used in their corrugated 4 car packs and for the Silver Streak Zephyr.
Starting in 1948, MP got 3 copies of the CZ dome coaches from Budd for use on the Colorado Eagle and eventually the orginal Budd cars were mixed into the general pool with the big order of ACF cars built for the Texas Eagles.
The 8-1-3 Thrift-T-Sleepers came on in 1958 until bumped by 6-6-4's in 1960. Around this time the train was probably using 10-6's or 14-4's for the primary St. Louis-Denver sleepers.
Mortive power was orginally A-B sets or E6's, but then became whatever set of E's or PA's from the MP's passenger power pool. BLI has made all of these, but for some reason they used the single headlight version of their E6 (MP's had the 2nd headlight position added pretty soon after delivery) and the dynamic brake equipped version of their PA shell (MP didn't get dynamics on any power until 1976). Not the end of the world, just odd...
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Oh man, Russ passed away? I missed that somehow.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I was paging through the color guide last night looking at options. The Kato corrugated diner (pre-war Budd) is workable, and you can get some prototype looking Eagle cars together but the train really does need some portholed equipment to run it home.
Time for some modeling.
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Yep, he passed away last summer I believe, some folks were at the last 2 Plano train shows selling items from his estate.
After looking at stuff again, you could use the follwing Kato cars pretty much as is with a paint job: the Budd corrugated baggage, Budd corrguated baggage/RPO and the CZ dome coach, the Centralia 6-6-4, and the MTL sleepers. The Kato Budd pre war diner looks right except for the porthole kitchen windows. MP got the PS corrugated coaches that Railsmith is doing from Maine Central in 1959 or 60, so you could use one of those as is.
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You are taking on a tough task, there are no MP eagle passenger car decals made in N. Russell Higginbotham (Red River Models) made some on a on demand basis, but I sadly didn't grab any before he passed away.
Simple white color lettering? RR Roman typeface? Those could easily be printed using whte ink on Alps printer.
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The prototype is metallic, aluminum if I recall. The MTL car lettering is a metallic gray, it has a shine to it.
Also MP used a slightly stretched and fairly thin variation of Railroad Roman, if you print at actual scale (the main lettering is either 14" or 12" high, don't have a diagram to hand) the thin parts of the letters are barely there. Even Atlas ran into this on their factory printed MP blue and gray GP7- look at the roadname under magnification. One way to deal with this is to print the letters slightly over size.
I've had some custom decals done by Circus City and they are very nice, but they had to bump them up a bit in size to print well and they can't do metallic colors on their printer. Can an ALPS do metallic colors? I thought that was something you need screen printing for?
Also, this is why I was so upset MTL didn't do any of the 36 named 10-1-2 pullmans MP had in the 5 car set. Their pad printing capability is excellent and they were able to print all the little lettering clearly.
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Yes, Alps can print both, metallic (matte metallic), and foil (reflective metallic) colors. But I imagine in this example, the lettering would be the same as on the other models which would not be repainted. As for the exact letter shapes, if the differences would be noticeable in such small scale, programs like Corel Draw or or Adobe Illustrator are capable of modifying shapes of letters. That would make the artwork design a bit more time consuming, but possible.
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Also, this is why I was so upset MTL didn't do any of the 36 named 10-1-2 pullmans MP had in the 5 car set. Their pad printing capability is excellent and they were able to print all the little lettering clearly.
MTL didn't pad print these. They painted the carbodies silver, then used their direct to substrate printer to print the rest. The lettering actually looks like they printed the blue around and let the silver show through. It also makes the blue brighter and metallic looking, unfortunately.
Is the Pullman oversize on the MTL paint job? It looks pretty big to my eye.
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MTL didn't pad print these. They painted the carbodies silver, then used their direct to substrate printer to print the rest. The lettering actually looks like they printed the blue around and let the silver show through. It also makes the blue brighter and metallic looking, unfortunately.
Is the Pullman oversize on the MTL paint job? It looks pretty big to my eye.
The 'Pullman' on Thrift T sleepers is pretty big. The cars (plan 4090, 8-3-1, per Jerry Laboda's old website) are, of course, a different prototype than the MTL 10-1-2s, so hard to say for sure on the size- but I think the MTL looks close. The prototype shows the "ULLMA" as sitting over 3 window sets, with the P and N overhanging-
Here's a Thrift T sleeper: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3492887
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MTL didn't pad print these. They painted the carbodies silver, then used their direct to substrate printer to print the rest. The lettering actually looks like they printed the blue around and let the silver show through. It also makes the blue brighter and metallic looking, unfortunately.
Yes, MTL has almost totally eliminated Tampo pad printing for decorating their models. Most of it (including the entire yellow billboard reefer sides) is done on an ink jet printer. If you look at it under magnification, you can see that the colors are composed of tiny dots of multiple color inks (just like a any home ink jet printer). I can actually tell by lookign with my bare eyes (must have microscope-eyes). :)
This development is both a blessing, and a curse. Blessing, because they can do all sorts of fancy paint schemes, weathering and graffiti (which those printers excel in), without the price of a model being based on how many Tampo color hits the model needed. It also greatly streamlines the production. They can send the computer-designed artwork straight to the printer, without needing to etch Tampo plates and custom mix inks. It is also a curse, because the results sometimes are not as good as using Tanmpo printing.
They still do use Tampo printing for some very small lettering, but since their printers are getting better and better (I think they are on a 3rd or 4th generation of printers), they might eventually print everything using the ink jets.
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I ordered a can of AS-7 Tamiya gray, and it's even better for the roofs. Slightly darker, and a touch warmer.
Decals, it does look like Microscale did eagle scheme for passenger units that includes the Missouri Pacific in silver. And the MP/T&P express boxcar sheet has some other pieces that will work, including good stripes.
But, yes, a full sheet of specific passenger decals would be welcome. Maybe we can make that happen.
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Still dinking around with the MTL car.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Looking good! Thanks for this thread, planning to do one of the Eagles someday
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Annnnnd… one modernized heavyweight.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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I’m staring at those pictures asking why Mopac left the steps black. Oh. Because they didn’t.
Doh.
[attachimg=1]
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Mike, that looks really good. So you used the Tamiya AS-7 on the roof and the AS-16 on the sides?
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Mike, that looks really good. So you used the Tamiya AS-7 on the roof and the AS-16 on the sides?
Yup, I ended up liking the AS-7 better than the earlier post.
Still deciding how to darken the blue... if I can without making it look bad or ruining the irreplaceable lettering.
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I hear you about the blue. Last night I pulled out my Wheel lf Time Baggage and my Walthers Coach and set them on the layout with one of the MTL sleepers. I think the WoT blue looks best (MTL too bright, Walthers too dark), but the MTL color is closer than the Walthers blue, which is more towards Jenks than Eagle blue.
You were right about the lettering by the way, so to replace it is going to require covering over the existing lettering. Not sure how to do that short of carefully painting over the lettering and hoping a coat of gloss and a coat of flat will cover things up.
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I hear you about the blue. Last night I pulled out my Wheel lf Time Baggage and my Walthers Coach and set them on the layout with one of the MTL sleepers. I think the WoT blue looks best (MTL too bright, Walthers too dark), but the MTL color is closer than the Walthers blue, which is more towards Jenks than Eagle blue.
You were right about the lettering by the way, so to replace it is going to require covering over the existing lettering. Not sure how to do that short of carefully painting over the lettering and hoping a coat of gloss and a coat of flat will cover things up.
How do you feel about the Centralia Car Shops sleeper colors? That blue is pretty dark as well, but is it too dark for Eagle blue?
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I'll have to look, I have a Centralia sleeper from the most recent run.
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[attachimg=1]
Started masking a Kato Budd pre-war baggage car and then noticed the window issue. Mopac had lower windows so they aligned in the main stripe. And wider door openings, 8ft?
So we print new doors and add the third window in the RPO while we’re carving.
Starting to see what a pain Mopac is. Ha!
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[attachimg=1]
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[attachimg=1]
And now we await a solution for the decal issue.
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What are you using for the blue?
Here are some pics comparing 4 cars- from left to right they are:
Walthers coach with repainted window band
New run Centralia 6-6-4
MTL sleeper
WoT baggage
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/30/medium_1007-161022000829.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30879)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/30/medium_1007-161022000915.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30881)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/30/medium_1007-161022000852.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30880)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/30/medium_1007-161022000932.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30882)
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I don't have a first run Centralia MP sleeper anymore, but when I did I recall it being a closer match to the WoT baggage cars.
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What are you using for the blue?
Tamiya Blue.
It was on hand for a VIA project and I liked it there too.
It is in between the MTL bright blue and the very dark Centralia new run.
What do you think?
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I think it looks pretty dang good, especially for a rattle can color. What's the color code?
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Mike,
What are you going to use for power for the train?
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Not trying to derail this, but seeing this is a MoPac fan club thread, maybe I can get some knowledgeable assistance in identifying the MoPac express box in the photo below. It is of an overflow section of Santa Fe #8, the Fast Mail and Express out of Los Angeles, on the east slope of Cajon Pass. Behind the 3751 class Northern is a NYC express reefer, an ATSF express box, a Pennsy baggage, and? I sure would like to know the MP car and how to model it (with the shade of blue not quite as important) :D
With apologies,
Otto K.
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Not trying to derail this, but seeing this is a MoPac fan club thread, maybe I can get some knowledgeable assistance in identifying the MoPac express box in the photo below.
I think you're looking at one of these:
(https://protocraft.com/images/8235B.jpg)
Protocraft has some info on this car.
https://protocraft.com/category.cfm?ItemID=8235&Categoryid=53 (https://protocraft.com/category.cfm?ItemID=8235&Categoryid=53)
Jason
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I think it looks pretty dang good, especially for a rattle can color. What's the color code?
Blue is TS-15. I apply it over TS-14 black so as to darken it and take out some of the vibrance.
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Mike,
What are you going to use for power for the train?
I’ve only been able to locate one BLI E-8 so far. I picked up a couple Kato PA shells if I have to get fancy.
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I think you're looking at one of these:
(https://protocraft.com/images/8235B.jpg)
Protocraft has some info on this car.
https://protocraft.com/category.cfm?ItemID=8235&Categoryid=53 (https://protocraft.com/category.cfm?ItemID=8235&Categoryid=53)
Jason
Jason, thank you very much, this is exactly what I was looking for. Very helpful.
So it would seem the Eagle scheme on these cars is just a bit too modern for my April '51 cutoff date; too bad. But it makes the photo of the steam powered Fast Mail at such a late date on Cajon so much more rare.
Thanks again. Now back to regularly scheduled programming.
Otto K.
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Jason, thank you very much, this is exactly what I was looking for. Very helpful.
So it would seem the Eagle scheme on these cars is just a bit too modern for my April '51 cutoff date; too bad. But it makes the photo of the steam powered Fast Mail at such a late date on Cajon so much more rare.
Thanks again. Now back to regularly scheduled programming.
Otto K.
This link should be helpful as well:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://resincarworks.com/extras/kit5-01_MPxa_protodata.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwioyuTTz_z6AhWxmWoFHagNBq44ChAWegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3bxcRbyF2Dzn4i8SNIXQYC (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://resincarworks.com/extras/kit5-01_MPxa_protodata.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwioyuTTz_z6AhWxmWoFHagNBq44ChAWegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3bxcRbyF2Dzn4i8SNIXQYC). Resin Car Works makes a kit in HO.
As far as modeling goes, the Microscale MP express boxcar set would work for the Eagle scheme, but you'd need custom decals for the pullman green. I think an IM 50' double door boxcar kit would be the best place to start, although the side sills are straight the they have a fishbelly underframe.
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Thank you, that's very useful as well.
Otto
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That Budd, Planetarium (as MP called them) dome coach looks good even if the KATO model is really a model of a 1947 Twin Zephyr Dome coach and there are no cutouts on the side skirting, at the trucks, which the MP cars had. Nate Goodman. (Nato).
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That Budd, Planetarium (as MP called them) dome coach looks good even if the KATO model is really a model of a 1947 Twin Zephyr Dome coach and there are no cutouts on the side skirting, at the trucks, which the MP cars had. Nate Goodman. (Nato).
You're half right, I haven't cut the skirts out yet. But, it is the right car out of a CZ set!
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I don’t have the CZ Burlington Bulletin and other material at hand this isn’t the documented genealogy, but at one point the MP was going to be part of the CZ consortium and have a connecting service feeding cars into the CZ. Hence the similarity to those cars.
Charlie Vlk
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There is a fuller discussion in Stout's Route of the Eagles, but Charlie has the gist of it. Basically MP had participated in WP-DRGW-MP St. Louis to Oakland passenger service for years, and with the advent of the CZ thought they could add a through coach Oakland to St. Louis via Pueblo. But the timings didn't work without having poorly timed departures at St. Louis so they got 3 CZ dome coaches but just used them on the Colorado Eagle.
I think after MP got the Pullman flat glass domes, they tended to pool the Budd domes more on the Dallas-El Paso leg of the Texas Eagle because the Budd cars had better A/C.
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Those tiny truck cutouts are correct. But look dumb. I think the Q had the right idea with full skirting!
[attachimg=1]
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Or the NP and GN, which preferred no skirting, and removed theirs fairly early. The Q's skirts were a pain if any maintenance had to be done.
But you're right - those cutouts are "dumb". They're little better than full skirting for maintenance, yet lack the clean appearance of the full skirting.
Any idea why they did it that way?
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Must be related to the brake cylinder on the truck. I'm guessing it wasn't an issue for the Q's choice braking system, but the Budd shops ran into a clearance issue and modified the build appropriately on the Wabash and MoPac cars.
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OK, that makes sense.
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Back at it. Got the paint on the baggage and RPO today.
[attachimg=1]
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Taped the doors in the get a look at the new Mopac style doors. It may not be perfectly prototypical, but it screams Mopac with the windows properly located in the stripes and the doors widened.
[attachimg=1]
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Now that's hot
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Mike, swapping to doors is a big improvement. Your paint job on these looms really good as well. Are you planning to use PA's as power?
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I’ve only been able to locate one PA and one E8 from BLI so far. Seems like Mopac did mix Alco and EMD but I’m no expert.
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Stumbled on this great pic today on Don Strack's fabulous Utah Rails site. Not a place I'd expect to see the Eagle, and a ton of other cool stuff. Looks like E7's but with funky portholes, at least in '48...
Otto
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E7's with portholes are definitely signature MoPac.
Also like that you've found the prototype for flex track on cork with a bumpy edge. @Ed Kapuscinski 's Law
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Ha! A prototype for everything, even a shiny nose...
O.
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Mike-
Looks like you I'll be needing rework for the MP / TP cars.
Does anyone have the stencil drawings for their extended and regular Railroad Roman characters? Did they just use regular Pullman Company fonts?
Charlie Vlk
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See the Pullman Digital Collection
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/3224/rec/1
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/3772/rec/1
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See the Pullman Digital Collection
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/3224/rec/1
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/3772/rec/1
You're a rockstar.
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Mike-
Looks like you I'll be needing rework for the MP / TP cars.
Does anyone have the stencil drawings for their extended and regular Railroad Roman characters? Did they just use regular Pullman Company fonts?
Charlie Vlk
In the words of our now deceased, mutual friend and font meister... "Waiting on you, woman!"
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Here's the Pullman font drawing. MoPac looks extended, and certainly has a flatter bottom to the U in PULLMAN.
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/4774/rec/14
Coifman's SP Extended Roma Font 3 looks like it might be a starting point.
http://www.railfonts.com/cgi-bin/font_shop/fontshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=page8.html
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I will have to post a query on the Passenger Car List. I haven't found enough clear broadsides to get especially the car names. A MP or T&P stencil drawing would be the ticket.
Charlie Vlk
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The MPHS has car lettering diagrams for some heavyweight cars (they sent me a couple on request) and I'd assume for some lightweights as well.
Early on MP used to wax or clear coat their passenger diesels, but I'm not sure when that stopped.
MP had 4 E8's and 36 various PA's, early on they ran in like sets, with the PA's using E7B's as a booster if more power was needed. On mainline trains (Texas-St. Louis) aound the mid 50's they seem to have mixed E's and PA's indiscriminately and by 1960 or so started adding torpedo tube GP7's.
Secondary trains used F units, FPA-2's and torpedo tube GP7's from dieselization.
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See the most excellent J. David Ingles Collection of MP/TP photos.
https://www.lakestatesarchive.org/J-David-Ingles-Collection/Passenger-Cars/MPTP/
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The links suggested will all be of help, thanks to all!
The Lakes States photos will especially be useful.
Charlie Vlk
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Reviving this thread:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/35/1007-230923222953.jpeg)
This is a Walthers coach with a MTL balloon roof sanded smooth and MP Scale models 3D printed "Texas Roof" roof ends. This car is a decent approximation of the MP heavyweight coaches rebuilt with welded sides an sealed windowns, the chief issue is all but 4 of the rebuilt cars had vestibules on both ends.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/35/1007-230923223019.jpeg)
Here's the fully painted version. I used Tamiya TS-32 Hqze Gray on the roof.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/35/1007-230923223038.jpeg)
Finally I got one of Lowell Smith's new MP coaches
There are very close to a group of ex Maine Central PS fluted coaches MP picked up around 1960-62. I repainted the roof with Tamiya Haze Gray as well.
Sokramiketes, have you had any luck on getting decals made? I'd definitely be in for a set, the rebuilt heavyweights really should say "Missouri Pacific Lines" in the upper blue stripe.
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RIP Charlie Vlk. He died before he finished the artwork. So, no progress on that front.
Thanks for the heads up on the MP Scale roof ends, those are neat.
And yes, I shared my colors with Lowell, and shipped cars over to him at his request for color matching. He had samples, and then said on one of his shows that he shifted the colors by one value darker (roof) and lighter (window band).
Well, they didn't come out great. I'll be repainting the roofs, and probably the gray window band. Lowell's darker roof turned into a greenish dark gray like the old Floquil UP Harbor Mist gray. It clashes with the MP colors...
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This reminds me that I need to finish designing my 14-4 passenger car. I've done the B&O version. MP would just need different skirts plus rivets.
And I need to finish that quad door baggage car, too...
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Sokramiketes, sorry to head that, I didn't realize he was the one working on the lettering for you.
I agree, the MP roof gray has more of a bluish tint, that's why I went with the Tamiya haze gray. The color Lowell (and Walthers) used has more of a greenish/yellowish tint to it.
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I’ve only been able to locate one BLI E-8 so far. I picked up a couple Kato PA shells if I have to get fancy.
Old topic but was wondering how the BLI E-8 Mopac paint matched up to the Tamiya colors you used.
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Old topic but was wondering how the BLI E-8 Mopac paint matched up to the Tamiya colors you used.
I set aside the project after Charlie Vlk, who was working on decal artwork with me, passed away. I should get back to it.
Anyway, the only thing I did was repaint the roof of the BLI E-8 to match the colors mentioned here.
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It's good too know that the BLI E-8 matches up to those Tamiya colors. I'm going to try to tackle that Micro-Trains heavyweight Missouri Pacific color fix you did. It was crazy that the pre-order artwork and the box art looked good but then the actual models didn't. Thanks for posting the work you did on them.
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Sokramiketes, sorry to head that, I didn't realize he was the one working on the lettering for you.
I agree, the MP roof gray has more of a bluish tint, that's why I went with the Tamiya haze gray. The color Lowell (and Walthers) used has more of a greenish/yellowish tint to it.
Yeah, I think Lowell went too Harbor Mist Gray... he had my color samples in hand and at the last minute asked for one shade darker from the factory. In the darkening, they must have grabbed something with a different tint... Out comes the Tamiya spray can despite best efforts. Oh well.