TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: Passenger55 on July 11, 2016, 08:51:12 PM
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Here is a video of an easy way to run conventional DC layouts with an iOS or Android device using a BlueRail board:
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This video is N scale. There is another video that shows running z scale.
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thats really neat. I
have operated on that layout several times and its always fun.
question is : can you control only one loco at a time. Dave uses blocks so he can run several locos at one time.
I like it. i know dave has not gone postal ( DCC) yet but this gets him closer :D
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This isn't available yet in N scale to control individual locos. The current plugin boards for individual locos only fit HO and larger. But its a pretty affordable way to run an N or Z DC train remotely until they do get small enough.
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That's pretty cool. I live the simplicity of the control layout.
Craig
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I wonder if this could be the solution to our clubs dying DC radio controlled throttles. The 1.2 amp limit seems a bit low for an N scale consist, though.
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This board has a curve of amperage support, starting at 4-8 amps for the first second, down to 2 amps for 15 seconds, and down to 1.2 amps after 1 minute continuous, before the built-in protection (ptc fuse) shuts the board off to protect itself.
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This board has a curve of amperage support, starting at 4-8 amps for the first second, down to 2 amps for 15 seconds, and down to 1.2 amps after 1 minute continuous, before the built-in protection (ptc fuse) shuts the board off to protect itself.
I saw that. I'm not sure a slow freight with six engines going up our continuous 2.5 percent grade at the club with a full train isn't going to pull 1.2amps for over a full minute. It may or may not, but it strikes me as cutting it a little close. One would like to run trains without worrying about it.
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So basically you use a type of a decoder as a DC throttle. Same thing can be done with a DCC decoder but you need additional hardware (and JMRI) to get it to work with WiFi and handheld devices.
That is pretty clever, but the train still runs under DC: no constant lighting (in the locos or passenger cars) or light effects, and no sound. I guess it is a very basic setup. But going from my experience, once you move to DCC, it is hard to turn back. The ease of operation and setting up consists, not worrying about blocks or polarity makes DCC an easy choice. Yes, it also comes with it's share of headaches, but many old-fashioned DC layouts I operate have their share of headaches too.
Still, this might be a good choice for someone who just needs a really basic WiFi-controlled layout.
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I like it.
So the appeal is.... that it is still plain old analog DC (which a lot of people still use).
But now you get a fast and easy wireless walk around throttle.
By the way... I still use DC.
Well, that is I have a dual mode layout that can go either way depending on what I'm doing/running at the time.
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I saw that. I'm not sure a slow freight with six engines going up our continuous 2.5 percent grade at the club with a full train isn't going to pull 1.2amps for over a full minute. It may or may not, but it strikes me as cutting it a little close. One would like to run trains without worrying about it.
I believe these PTC fuses will reset to protect the board, so you could safely experiment a little till you find the sweet spot that your train can pull x number of cars up a grade. In the User Showcase on the BlueRail site there are some stats of an O scale train using this board to pull 8-9 pounds of cars on a grade - I'm not sure what that corresponds to with N trains. You could always wait for the higher amperage board to come out. Towards the end of this year there are bluetooth modules scheduled to release with dimensions that could possibly fit an N loco. I'm not sure how long it will be till those are integrated into train control boards.
Here is a link to an article describing how to wire this sort of setup (to power a layout): http://bluerailtrains.com/2016/07/14/using-a-bluerail-board-to-run-dc-trains-and-lights-on-a-conventional-train-set/
You can also control 4 lighting elements or accessories on the layout.
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So basically you use a type of a decoder as a DC throttle. Same thing can be done with a DCC decoder but you need additional hardware (and JMRI) to get it to work with WiFi and handheld devices.
One concern about using a DCC decoder as a DC power pack is overcurrent protection. Another is if a DC loco runs into a DCC block accidentally (yes, planning for this is required, not negotiable*), then you essentially have a motor lead shorting to the rail which is what they tell you will fry your decoder.
*To explain, we have a common-rail layout with several DC cabs and a DCC system. (It was required to use Digitrax boosters with Loconet optically isolated, a not well known but available option). So one can dispatch multiple DC trains along with DCC.
What's attractive about the Bluerail is that each 'cab' could be powered by a separate isolated power source, so no worry about ground fault or short circuit. And the overcurrent documentation is reassuring. I'm imagine we could cobble together overcurrent and isolation for a DCC decoder, but I for one don't have the time, and in a club environment it's nice to provide a known product for whoever else might be coming along to maintain it later.
That is pretty clever, but the train still runs under DC: no constant lighting (in the locos or passenger cars) or light effects, and no sound. I guess it is a very basic setup. But going from my experience, once you move to DCC, it is hard to turn back.
True, but the whole club does not convert at once, and we want to be open to everyone. The fact that our DC cabs tend not to all be reliably working at one time has become a lot less of a problem over the last decade as a bunch of members have converted to DCC. But we'd still like to support DC for the foreseeable future.
The ease of ... setting up consists,
Of all the things that you mentioned, setting up consists is the one thing that is not easier with DCC. :lol: :P
Still, this might be a good choice for someone who just needs a really basic WiFi-controlled layout.
Bluetooth not Wifi. :trollface:
... You could always wait for the higher amperage board to come out. Towards the end of this year there are bluetooth modules scheduled to release with dimensions that could possibly fit an N loco. I'm not sure how long it will be till those are integrated into train control boards.
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The higher amperage board would probably be worth waiting for, do you have a link for that?
Not really interested in putting boards inside N scale locos, DCC works well enough for that.
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One concern about using a DCC decoder as a DC power pack is overcurrent protection. Another is if a DC loco runs into a DCC block accidentally (yes, planning for this is required, not negotiable*), then you essentially have a motor lead shorting to the rail which is what they tell you will fry your decoder.
*To explain, we have a common-rail layout with several DC cabs and a DCC system. (It was required to use Digitrax boosters with Loconet optically isolated, a not well known but available option). So one can dispatch multiple DC trains along with DCC.
What's attractive about the Bluerail is that each 'cab' could be powered by a separate isolated power source, so no worry about ground fault or short circuit. And the overcurrent documentation is reassuring. I'm imagine we could cobble together overcurrent and isolation for a DCC decoder, but I for one don't have the time, and in a club environment it's nice to provide a known product for whoever else might be coming along to maintain it later.
True, but the whole club does not convert at once, and we want to be open to everyone. The fact that our DC cabs tend not to all be reliably working at one time has become a lot less of a problem over the last decade as a bunch of members have converted to DCC. But we'd still like to support DC for the foreseeable future.
Of all the things that you mentioned, setting up consists is the one thing that is not easier with DCC. :lol: :P
Bluetooth not Wifi. :trollface:
Yeah, Bluetooth - that was a a slip-up on my part. The bottom line is that it is a type of wireless radio (not IR) control. :P
Don't some DCC decoders offer motor output overload protection?
As far as worrying about polarity and shorts I cannot envision this being used for anything but small roundy-round layout. So, no multiple blocks or throttles.
I don't know about you, but I have operated on many DC-block control and DCC ones and I can comfortably state (at least for me) that the convenience of DCC (no worries about block polarity or throttle/block assignment, easily settign up to run multiple locos - even with helper locos, plus the excellent lighting effects) beats the DC-block control by a huge margin. Even if there is some pain to go through and a learning curve involved. DCC sure has its gremlins but overall, it is so much more operating-session-friendly. There are plenty of things (like adjacent opposite-polarity blocks or losing control of your train by crossing over to someone else's block) which can and will go wrong on DC-controlled layouts. So is the constant need to worry about the settings which need to be done in the next block. That's how I see this DC vs. DCC debate. Or in this example N scale BlueRail vs. DCC debate.
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Yeah, Bluetooth - that was a a slip-up on my part. The bottom line is that it is a type of wireless radio (not IR) control. :P
Don't some DCC decoders offer motor output overload protection?
As far as worrying about polarity and shorts I cannot envision this being used for anything but small roundy-round layout. So, no multiple blocks or throttles.
I don't know about you, but I have operated on many DC-block control and DCC ones and I can comfortably state (at least for me) that the convenience of DCC (no worries about block polarity or throttle/block assignment, easily settign up to run multiple locos - even with helper locos, plus the excellent lighting effects) beats the DC-block control by a huge margin. Even if there is some pain to go through and a learning curve involved. DCC sure has its gremlins but overall, it is so much more operating-session-friendly. There are plenty of things (like adjacent opposite-polarity blocks or losing control of your train by crossing over to someone else's block) which can and will go wrong on DC-controlled layouts. So is the constant need to worry about the settings which need to be done in the next block. That's how I see this DC vs. DCC debate. Or in this example N scale BlueRail vs. DCC debate.
Dude, you're missing my point. You don't need to sell me on the benefits of DCC. But we have a club layout and we want to continue to support DC for the foreseeable future because not all our members are going to convert, or not at once. I personally am about half way through converting my fleet and want to run my DC locos in the meantime. The whole layout has been built to support both DC and DCC for a long time, we're not forced to make a choice or expend any real effort there. The only thing is that our old garage-door technology DC throttles could stand to be replaced, and this could potentially be the replacement.
I can envision Bluerail being used for more than a roundy-roundy layout. That's my point.
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Dude, you're missing my point. You don't need to sell me on the benefits of DCC. But we have a club layout and we want to continue to support DC for the foreseeable future because not all our members are going to convert, or not at once. I personally am about half way through converting my fleet and want to run my DC locos in the meantime. The whole layout has been built to support both DC and DCC for a long time, we're not forced to make a choice or expend any real effort there. The only thing is that our old garage-door technology DC throttles could stand to be replaced, and this could potentially be the replacement.
I can envision Bluerail being used for more than a roundy-roundy layout. That's my point.
I do see your point.
So you would replace the current DC throttles on that layout with these decoder-throttle units. You still have to make sure to properly assign the appropriate blocks to the appropriate throttles or to DCC, as you have always done. And we both know that accidents and mistakes can and will happen and a train overrunning a block assigned to a different throttle (either DC or the DCC signal) will cause shorts (or some bad interaction) between those adjacent blocks. Even if each BlueRail has a separate power supply, the short could cause damage to those decoder/throttle units (even if they have a PTC breaker). That is regardless of whether a common rail system is used or not. If each BlueRail throttle in the shorted out blocks is set to run in opposite direction they might get damaged (depending on how fast the breaker acts). A short between a BlueRail throttle and a DCC block could also be damaging even if the throttle is set to zero speed. But I guess if the Bluerail's output stage is as robust as the old fashioned DC throttle then there will not be any damage.
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I'm not really seeing how running into the wrong block would damage the Bluerail board, if it has adequate short-circuit protection which it seems it does. There's no damaging return path current I can see, as long as each blue-rail is connected to separate power supply. And yes, as long as the Bluerail OCP is as robust as any other DC throttle then it should be as safe as what we have now. (I'm curious what the reset time is on the BlueRail board.)
I suppose maybe the same could be said of DCC decoders each connected to their own booster, but even so I'm less convinced of that. Seems a lot more expensive, too, to pay for a DCC booster and not just a DC wall-wart.
I don't know much about overcurrent protection on DCC decoder motor control outputs. One thing I do know is that trying to run a DCC loco in analog mode with a DCC decoder causes problems, but that is probably a feature we could stand to do without.
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I'm not really seeing how running into the wrong block would damage the Bluerail board, if it has adequate short-circuit protection which it seems it does. There's no damaging return path current I can see, as long as each blue-rail is connected to separate power supply.
No current huh? The block boundaries are gapped on both rails. A loco crosses over the bloc boundary. SInce all the locos wheels on each side are connected to each other electrically, the loco basically connects both blocks int a single electrical block.
Imagine that each of those blocks is powered by a simple 9V battery. So they are totally separate electric power supplies. If the polarity of those batteries is the same in each block and the batteries are in identical state of charge (have the same voltage across them) then no current will flow. But even with the slightest different of their voltages (imbalance) a current will start flowing from the higher voltage battery to the lower one. If they are at opposite polarity then lots of current will flow. While the are separate power supplies the current will still flow because both rails of the blocks are shorted creating a closed circuit, and each power source has electrical properties such as internal resistance.
Now add to the mix a modern PWM output stages or DCC booster power shorting both sides of those power sources creates even more complex "short".
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No current huh? The block boundaries are gapped on both rails. A loco crosses over the bloc boundary. SInce all the locos wheels on each side are connected to each other electrically, the loco basically connects both blocks int a single electrical block.
Imagine that each of those blocks is powered by a simple 9V battery. So they are totally separate electric power supplies. If the polarity of those batteries is the same in each block and the batteries are in identical state of charge (have the same voltage across them) then no current will flow. But even with the slightest different of their voltages (imbalance) a current will start flowing from the higher voltage battery to the lower one. If they are at opposite polarity then lots of current will flow. While the are separate power supplies the current will still flow because both rails of the blocks are shorted creating a closed circuit, and each power source has electrical properties such as internal resistance.
Now add to the mix a modern PWM output stages or DCC booster power shorting both sides of those power sources creates even more complex "short".
I didn't say no current, I said no damaging return current. I don't see one Bluerail board serving as a low resistance path for another if they are connected to isolated power supplies. And even if it did, robust OCP ought to shut them both down. Presumably it would kick in on both boards.
I think I'll just contact Bluerail and ask them what they think.
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I didn't say no current, I said no damaging return current. I don't see one Bluerail board serving as a low resistance path for another if they are connected to isolated power supplies. And even if it did, robust OCP ought to shut them both down. Presumably it would kick in on both boards.
I guess you don't understand that there doesn't have to be a common "current return leg" when 2 independent sources of voltage (which by definition also have internal resistance) are connected in a way that creates a current path (in our cases connecting on both tracks, the path over one track will supply the current while the other will be the current return path. How damaging it is depends on the voltage difference between those 2 sources of voltage and on the overall resistance of the circuit. Complicating the matter is the fact that those sources of voltages (throttles) are more than simple batteries - they are semiconductor devices.
But maybe I'm just being too cautious - maybe you are right that using those on a block-control layout and accidentally shorting 2 outputs together or shorting the output to a DCC booster signal will be perfectly safe.
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But maybe I'm just being too cautious - maybe you are right that using those on a block-control layout and accidentally shorting 2 outputs together or shorting the output to a DCC booster signal will be perfectly safe.
I have never seen it damage power supplies of any kind, which is my primary concern here. (And I've seen plenty of opportunities if it were going to happen, small sample size is not an issue with that.) And I put that down to all the power supplies being isolated and having adequate overcurrent protection to protect themselves. Potential damage to locos is really beside the point: it happens, somewhat rarely, but the risk is a given if you use block control or power routing turnouts, and it can happen with a single power source just as easily as with multiple ones. Also the Bluerail OCP might be an improvement over what we have now.
I think it's imprecise to talk about an isolated power supplies 'shorting' to another. I know you understand electricity so I'm a bit baffled you're putting it that way. Yes, depending on the internal resistances you could get a low resistance series circuit, but two 9V batteries is definitely not a good analogy for two Bluerail boards connected to separate DC wallwarts. At a minimum, those wallwarts are each going to have a transformer and rectifier, and probably a voltage regulator and capacitors, and that could be way to much resistance to count as a 'short'. But more important, it's all moot if the OCPD kicks in fast and reliably enough to protect the board and supply.
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I have never seen it damage power supplies of any kind, which is my primary concern here. (And I've seen plenty of opportunities if it were going to happen, small sample size is not an issue with that.) And I put that down to all the power supplies being isolated and having adequate overcurrent protection to protect themselves. Potential damage to locos is really beside the point: it happens, somewhat rarely, but the risk is a given if you use block control or power routing turnouts, and it can happen with a single power source just as easily as with multiple ones. Also the Bluerail OCP might be an improvement over what we have now.
I think it's imprecise to talk about an isolated power supplies 'shorting' to another. I know you understand electricity so I'm a bit baffled you're putting it that way. Yes, depending on the internal resistances you could get a low resistance series circuit, but two 9V batteries is definitely not a good analogy for two Bluerail boards connected to separate DC wallwarts. At a minimum, those wallwarts are each going to have a transformer and rectifier, and probably a voltage regulator and capacitors, and that could be way to much resistance to count as a 'short'. But more important, it's all moot if the OCPD kicks in fast and reliably enough to protect the board and supply.
Yes I understand electricity and I see that you seem to be overthinking this. Think of the throttle circuits as black boxes which can have voltage presented and can supply current, and which have internal resistance at the 2 terminals visible to the outside world. What is inside of each does not matter. For all you know, those black boxes could simply contain 9V batteries inside with a rheostat in series with the battery. When you connect both terminals of those 2 black boxes together, depending on what is at those terminals current can flow.
I also never said "shorted". That is too vague of a description of what would be taking place. Short to me means close to zero ohms resistance placed across some device which is capable of producing current and supplying voltage. No, what will be happening is not a short, but could still be damaging to what is inside those black boxes.
But this is all just theoretical speculations with no specific data.
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Wait, I'm the one overthinking this? :lol: :facepalm:
To my mind, you are the one introducing theoretical questions that aren't very relevant practical considerations, such as the internal resistance of power supplies.
To me the practical considerations are merely:
- Do the power supplies have adequate overcurrent protection?
- Are they isolated?
They need to be isolated to work as power sources for common rail block selection. Multiple Bluerail boards connected to the same DC power source will probably not work, even if trains stay in their correct blocks. Same with DCC decoders on the same booster with outputs connected to the rail. So you can't talk about the DC sources as separate black boxes unless you know they are actually separate black boxes.
If you're assured of overcurrent protection and isolation, the chances of anything going seriously wrong are close to nil.
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Wait, I'm the one overthinking this? :lol: :facepalm:
If you're assured of overcurrent protection and isolation, the chances of anything going seriously wrong are close to nil.
You are absolutely right! I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry! I have no friggin' ideal what got into me to produce such wild speculations. I apologize. :facepalm:
I must have been using some totally non-standard electrical theories - I deserve all those down-votes. I have no clue about what I'm talking about. :facepalm: :facepalm:
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You're both over thinking this.
for this much effort, just go DCC.....
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You're both over thinking this.
for this much effort, just go DCC.....
Please actually read the whole thread before raising points that have already been addressed.
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Have either of you (jagged Ben & Peteski) actually touched this device?
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Not me. I put in a word to BlueRail and got a prompt but incomplete response. If they are positive about the idea I may purchase one for the club to try out, or wait for the higher amp board. We have some used OOP wireless throttles that are another possibility.
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Not me. Why spoil a nice theoretical discussion in an online forum? ;)
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Yeah, I got the 30 days old warning here, but I think I should update the thread...
I e-mailed Blue Rail and Dave over there said that he tried out a common rail setup with two boards and it worked fine. That's the punchline.
He did also say that when a locomotive ran into the wrong block it seemed to confuse the BEMF features on the board, and there was slowdown. But then, if you run into the wrong block on a DC layout, you get what you get (and you don't get upset).