TheRailwire
General Discussion => Weathering, Detailing, and Scratchbuilding => Topic started by: chicken45 on April 02, 2015, 12:40:53 PM
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So for the second time, I've had unhappy results with spraying clear gloss.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
I'm using Future.
It's not smooth. It's not all that glossy, either.
I'm spraying straight at 20psi.
I'm spraying over Boxcar Red painted resin model.
I feel when I first started shooting, it wasn't glossy at all. Made me think I was shooting too dry. It got a little better when I got closer and heavier, but it still looks like crap.
Thoughts?
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Gloss is a major pain to get "right", but it can be done! If you are getting "orange peel" that's the Future drying in the air before hitting the model.
Lower pressure and close to the model works best. Humidity of the room also impacts the gloss.
Did you thin it any? I have used Windex (ammonia-based) while spraying Future with some success in the past.
I have had more consistent results spraying gloss varnish (Liquitex) thinned with Vallejo thinner.
Frank
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I did not thin at all.
Do you think what I have now can be made better by more coats? I'll try to take some pictures when I get home. It just has to be good enough for decaling, and the car will be weathered pretty heavily. It just bothers me that I've never been able to get it right.
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I've been using the Future a lot lately and have found that a few light coats, sprayed at about 20 psi a few inches from the model are the best. It's true that I don't see the gloss after the first coat, but once I get the second coat, it's glossy from all angles. I do not thin it at all and spray all the coats in one airbrush loading. When I first started using it, I sprayed it on heavy looking for the gloss look when wet, but it ended up running in areas and looked awful. I also had some luck with sanding down runny spots on my first few models and recoating, it will look like crap when you first break through the gloss coat and see flat areas, but the recoat blends very nicely.
All of the articles I read online from the model car guys said to spray it heavy to get an even coat. I found that more, thinner coats was best and that even if you see spotty coverage after you are "done", another light application will blend the Future together. Just be sure to get at it from all angles.
Here are a couple of shots of an Atlas model I just clearcoated and decaled earlier this week.
This is before the Future, just Badger ModelFlex paint, silver mixed in keeps it from looking totally flat.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/dmidkiff/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5570_zpsn15sjkqe.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/dmidkiff/media/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5570_zpsn15sjkqe.jpg.html)
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/dmidkiff/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5561_zpsf0yduzcr.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/dmidkiff/media/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5561_zpsf0yduzcr.jpg.html)
Here is it after the Future gloss coat and decals.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/dmidkiff/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5582_zpspd7cimof.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/dmidkiff/media/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5582_zpspd7cimof.jpg.html)
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/dmidkiff/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5580_zps8ezridzz.jpg) (http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/dmidkiff/media/Amtrak%20502/DSCN5580_zps8ezridzz.jpg.html)
Hope it helps.
Doug
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With any gloss paint (um, it helps with flat paints too), at some point, it needs to go on wet. If it doesn't, there is a good chance that the paint will no level out on the surface of the model. I usually airbrush at lower pressures, open the nozzle until I get fairly high volume of paint, and spray fairly close to the model (few inches away). If you are planning on multiple coats, the first coats can be applied lightly (to build up a layer of paint) before the final wet coats, but if you spray them on too coarse, the wet coats will not be able to level the rough layers.
If you hold the airbrush a foot away and spray with high air pressure and low paint volume, you will never got a nice glossy surface. BTW, mine are general observations - I have never sprayed Future. But it shouldn't be any different.
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Thanks for the advice yinz guys. I'll try some more coats tonight and see what happens.
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Here's the citrus!
(https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1506507_10108433915507604_1537086051605800891_n.jpg?oh=a3c0b7178d95689d40d26f9fd62cc310&oe=55A440AB)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11130152_10108433915831954_2637763855490871877_n.jpg?oh=95eb6852267685534f266d8a3babf07d&oe=559B07DA&__gda__=1438055891_ddc2774303f17416ede8c61e97290663)
(https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11102617_10108433915956704_612291522172022661_n.jpg?oh=283f8c7998982b2c6db081feb14a9202&oe=55A387E6)
(https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11081033_10108433915727164_8465977323876529183_n.jpg?oh=baab19a83fe5f3a02740fbc9f661d666&oe=55AEC5C8)
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Um, I don't think that the way you applied the Future is the problem. It looks quite shiny. I think that the flat paint you applied first is too rough (again, that layer was applied too dry)' Future goes on very thin and as such it is unable to level out over the very rough flat paint surface.
I don't ever have to worry about this kind of problems - I use AccuPaint and TruColor paints. Not only they go on in very thin coat, they dry to a semigloss finish - no need for clear - decals go directly over them. It is so much easier to work with than flat/clear gloss/flat again thing many people struggle with.
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not to derail the thread
just a quick question
Josh...looks like a passenger service REA car you are working on?
If so...who makes that car?
I have some Roundhouse ones on their way but your's look better detailed.
Thanks for any info....
Gary
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Um, I don't think that the way you applied the Future is the problem. It looks quite shiny. I think that the flat paint you applied first is too rough (again, that layer was applied too dry)' Future goes on very thin and as such it is unable to level out over the very rough flat paint surface.
I don't ever have to worry about this kind of problems - I use AccuPaint and TruColor paints. Not only they go on in very thin coat, they dry to a semigloss finish - no need for clear - decals go directly over them. It is so much easier to work with than flat/clear gloss/flat again thing many people struggle with.
I'm cool with that...which is a good Boxcar Red and Zinc Chromate?
But thanks for the observation, Pete. That could very well be the case. I'll try to spray something unpainted when I get home.
This was the GHQ R50b that is being rerun.
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Get some photos before you apply Future.
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I nearly forgot! I glossed up a 44 Tonner that had factory paint. Here are both sides. One side turned out better than the other.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10974381_10108059235394554_4041963300484233802_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)
(https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10928903_10108059235414514_3724450521872044335_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)
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Josh, it looks like you are simply missing to spray certain areas on the 44-tonner. When spraying any clear glossy paint it is important to have a logh source position in such a way that you can easily reflect it off the model's surface (to check that it is shiny and wet-looking) as you are spraying. That will easily show any areas you missed and touch them up while the surface is still wet.
As far as Tru-Color paint colors go, see what looks appropriate at http://trucolorpaint.com/color-charts/ (http://trucolorpaint.com/color-charts/)
I wish they were selliing real color chips, but the PDFs are the only thing they have.
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Orange peel is usually the result of too quick a pass. Low gloss is usually the paint drying before it hits the surface.
On that REA that's good enough for decals. To be honest, I've had no issues decaling directly on flat paint. I often decal right on flat black or dark colors. After the decal has set, I thoroughly saturate the decal with Micro-Sol or Walthers DSS. I then hit the model with either satin, flat or clear. Just tap any silvered decals with a pin and hit it with Micro-Sol.
The S.
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That doesn't look like orange peel to me, it looks more like dust on the model. Orange peel (in my experience) is usually more uniform than that.
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Josh, it looks like you are simply missing to spray certain areas on the 44-tonner. When spraying any clear glossy paint it is important to have a logh source position in such a way that you can easily reflect it off the model's surface (to check that it is shiny and wet-looking) as you are spraying. That will easily show any areas you missed and touch them up while the surface is still wet.
As far as Tru-Color paint colors go, see what looks appropriate at http://trucolorpaint.com/color-charts/ (http://trucolorpaint.com/color-charts/)
I wish they were selliing real color chips, but the PDFs are the only thing they have.
Yeah, I did, but I wasn't all that concerned. The prototype photo I was looking at was REALLY glossy on the top half. so I was less concerned with what was "below the waist." But I did realize after I started spraying, I should have done something about the railing. T'was my first time painting something with hand rails!
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Josh:
I have had good success brushing on Future. It has just the right viscosity to spread and smooth out. Use a generous amount with a large soft brush. One of the problems with spraying is that you can get partial drying while the particles are in the air resulting in thicked or bumpy finish. Paint rarely is successful with brushing, but I think that Future works well.
Doug.
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Josh:
I have had good success brushing on Future. It has just the right viscosity to spread and smooth out. Use a generous amount with a large soft brush. One of the problems with spraying is that you can get partial drying while the particles are in the air resulting in thicked or bumpy finish. Paint rarely is successful with brushing, but I think that Future works well.
Doug.
I first started brushing Future on my flat cars and it worked ok. It was glossy and pretty smooth. The next car I did was worse. I think I used too little and it got dry and I got some irregular texture. Then someone said to airbrush it. I think I may go back to hand brushing.
Do you guys gloss the whole surface of what is getting decals? I don't want to glob on gloss in the center of a boxcar side and then have a "lip" visible after the decal and dullcoat.
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I'll say it again - I simply use paints (Accu-Paint and Tru-Color) which dry to an semi-gloss finish and I skip the gloss entirely - decal right over the paint. Then I cover the car with my custom mix of Dull and Gloss Cote which results in semi-flat finish. It is easier, I like the paints better and I have fewer coats of detail-hiding paint on the model. :)
But if I had to used gloss for decal I would spray the entire model (or at least the entire side where the decal will be applied).
Doug, if any kind of paint being airbrushed is drying before hitting the model, then something is wrong with the spraying method.
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I'm with you on this one Peteski. I would much rather use the Accu flex however it is getting hard to find here down under. saves a ton of work as well and the finnish is so much better.
Rod.
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(https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11148498_10108508420513974_1335650275007152396_n.jpg?oh=89135569fc210f4fc08342d63b859102&oe=55DA9130)
Went to remove a decal today. This happened. What caused this?
The decal was applied over Future and removed with Solvaset one day later.
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Solvaset attacked Future?
I'm an old-school organic solvent based paints addict. I have never used Future as a clear gloss on any of my models. What brand is the underlying boxcar red paint?
If these were organic based paints I woudl try to spray some lacquer thinner over the blemish (or maybe even another coat of clear). But if these are water-based paints I really don't know what (and if anything) might work.
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That the weird part. The other decals got bathed in solvaset.
The difference is it was lightly scrubbed with a brush to remove the decals.
The base paint is acrylic boxcar red.
I'll try to apply some more gloss tomorrow. All isn't lost as this will get the Mann Treatment.
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What that looks like to me is that the Solvaset and scrubbing removed or dissolved the Future then it got some of the flattening agent from the color layer to precipitate to the surface. The flattening agent in flat paints is a very fine white powder (similar to talcum powder).,
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I've had this happen as well Josh when I scrubbed my first model with Future. From my experience, Peteski is exactly right, the scrubbing removed the acrylic finish and you are seeing the paint and flattening below. Clean the area with a mild soap and water and reclear, the Future should blend itself back in and you won't see the area. I use MicroSol, not Solvaset, but I do always see a slight change in sheen while the decal is wet, once it dries, it disappears.
Doug
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Thanks for the help, guys!I'll give it a go again tonight.
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The forum proves useful again!!!
Hooray!
Although, as you said, if she's gonna be a dirty girl, then why spend the time on cleaning it up.... Other than for educational purposes of course
:)
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Well now! That did the trick! Thanks, guys! Additional Future cured all. So much so, in fact, that I couldn't tell which one was messed up in the first place.
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Any time Future is brought up I bring out this link.
http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html
(http://) It's a great site on the subject with a lot of info.
Jon
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Any time Future is brought up I bring out this link.
http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html
(http://) It's a great site on the subject with a lot of info.
Jon
Yes, that is the reference to keep!
I wonder when he will rename it TheCompletePledgeFloorCareMulti-SurfaceFinish? :D
Why couldn't they have left things well enough alone? Future sounded so much better. :facepalm:
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I think I may still be spraying too dry. I painted some styrene with some gloss and had some issues. It may have been a dirty airbrush nozzle, though. We'll see what happens.
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I think I may still be spraying too dry. I painted some styrene with some gloss and had some issues. It may have been a dirty airbrush nozzle, though. We'll see what happens.
It needs to go on wet so it levels out on the painted surface. Either decrease air pressure, increase paint flow, or spray closer to the model (or a combination of any of the above). If you get really close to the model you will want to use low air pressure and not too much paint flow. It is a matter of practicing what works the best for you.
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More frustration!
This was after 3 coats of hand brushed future. Do I need to just add more coats?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11137109_10109086761888224_319677839413187744_n.jpg?oh=56596cc21878f84ba49b856efff7e114&oe=56163FCE)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11703138_10109086761893214_302349695062284274_n.jpg?oh=8101e0fcb7b9055373a9a5d1d895b791&oe=56553DE9)
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Get closer and slow your movement. Weeeetttt.
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More frustration!
This was after 3 coats of hand brushed future. Do I need to just add more coats?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11137109_10109086761888224_319677839413187744_n.jpg?oh=56596cc21878f84ba49b856efff7e114&oe=56163FCE)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11703138_10109086761893214_302349695062284274_n.jpg?oh=8101e0fcb7b9055373a9a5d1d895b791&oe=56553DE9)
Doesn't get much closer or slower . . . .
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That's the problem. If I get closer, I'll need lower pressure. I'm already spraying at 15psi when I do spray.
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11137109_10109086761888224_319677839413187744_n.jpg?oh=56596cc21878f84ba49b856efff7e114&oe=56163FCE)
Josh,
Do you have a photo of this car before any gloss coating? I'm thinking that your problem is you have a very rough finish to begin with. If that's the case then you may not get a good finish no matter how many coats you put on it. If it is rough then your paint is going on too dry. Just my observation.
Jon
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I agree that the paint under the gloss coat is the real problem. It must have been very flat and possibly applied in a way that partially dried it before it hit the model. That gives the flat surface even more texture (which the gloss has to fill to get really glossy). You can apply 20 coats of gloss (future or whatever) to actually make it glossy (that will fill all the irregularities) but the clear will be so thick that the model will look like it has a layer of ice on it!
On model car bodies (automotive models) when when something like this happens, you could sand and rub out the surface then spray more clear), but on a body with all sorts of surface details and rivets this will not work.
The key to a glossy coat is smoothness of all the layers of paint applied to the model. I prefer not using flat paints as the color coat. That is why I like paints such as AccuPaint, Tru-Color, or Scalecoat II. They dry to a smooth semigloss finish (if applied properly of course). :)
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Hmm. Ok. That's likely, you guys. I had some trouble spraying the paint today. It was an old acrylic. I had to put on several light coats and thought the gloss would level things out. I just didn't realize how many coats it would take.