TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: TrainCat2 on April 21, 2008, 07:34:06 PM
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I have over 40 emails asking me to produce a Step-by-Step photo "essay" on how difficult it is to build a brass caboose. Since I etched the first sheet on Sunday, I thought I would oblige and do one. Since I despise atta-boys and want real criticism, this is the best place. It may be filled with goofs and triumphs, but I am willing to show all. I will start and if everyone wants, I'll continue.
Here is the SP C-40-3 Caboose sheet right out of the etcher. There is details on both sides of the pieces.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca01.jpg)
Remove the basic shell sections; Sides, Ends And Inner Floor. The Sides & Ends fold with a solid back and a half-etched detail outer layer. Begin by folding the Sides and Ends.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca02.jpg)
When the Side and End halves are folded together, you can begin to see the layers of details.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca03.jpg)
The Inner Floor has tabs that go into slots on the back of the Sides. Begin attaching the first Side to the Floor. Be sure the wood plank detail on the Landings is facing up.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca04.jpg)
Slide the Landing through the slot on the End and secure the End to both the Inner Floor and the First Side.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca05.jpg)
What you see took me less than 15 minutes to complete. I continue and shoot some more pics.
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Stop shooting pics of this SP crap and etch up some CR cabin cars man.
Wow, that is BEAUTIFUL!!!!!
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Shouldn't we all get a free sample so we can be a better informed "focus group?"
Lee
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Stop shooting pics of this SP crap and etch up some CR cabin cars man.
Yes Mother
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/n6atc.jpg)
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Bob-
Ed popped off, and look what happened.
If I insult you, will you show us a 1950's era Southern bay window???!!!! ;D
That is some amazing etching work.
You're asking for constructive criticism, and the only thing I wonder about is low tracking weight.
Would it be difficult to stuff weight below the floor? Or does sandwiching that much brass get you there
without adding additional weight?
Thanks for the tutorial so far, I can't wait to see more.
Take care,
-Phil Brooks
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Freakin' awesome. When can this be ordered?
Attaboy Bob! ;)
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That's one beautiful piece of work. Now excuse me while I continue counting the scale rivets on the sides.
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Very nice!
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Stop shooting pics of this SP crap and etch up some CR cabin cars man.
Yes Mother
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/n6atc.jpg)
Oh man. Now I need new undies.
Thanks man.
Like Tom said. When????
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Awesome indeed. Not only the finished product, but the thought that went into designing the components. Those foldover sides and ends are a stroke of genius! 8) 8)
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Bob has some photos up on his site. Really nice looking models.
The SP caboose is a work of art: http://traincat2.com/images/models/1400501.jpg
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Dave Vollmer are you watching?
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_foto_fun_169.jpg)
Man, that's beautiful!
Lee
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Are you going to offer the kits in N & HO ?
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The N6A is an HO brass model at this point. It will be an N-Scale hack by year's end. I just had to yank Ed's chain like this
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/n6atc1.jpg)
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Lol.
I love it.
You should draw some hands pulling the window open....
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OK, I got some more done between working on other new projects. Time to build the undercarrage.
First place the Outer Floor with the detail facing up. Get together all of the other components; I-Beam Webs A & B, I-Beam Cap Strips, Bolster Ribs & Plates, Air Line.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca06.jpg)
Secure the two I-Beam Webs to the center of the Outer Floor. Bend the Air Hose in a "Z" bend to fit the angle in the I-Beam Webs. Install the Air Hose.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca07.jpg)
Add the Bolster Ribs by sliding the slots in the Ribs into the slots in the I-Beam Web. Secure the Ribs to the Outer Floor.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca08.jpg)
Next goes the I-Beam Cap Strips. The Cap Strips have slots on the underside and the Webs have notches. Once Secure, add the Bolster Plates over the Bolster Ribs. I am still waiting for my custom brass castings to arrive. Included in the kit will be Air Hoses, Air Resevoir, Brake Actuator and Selector Valve with .008 brass wire for the plumbing.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca09.jpg)
Test fit the Undercarrage trimming the Air Lines to the end of the Landings.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca11.jpg)
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Bob, constructive suggestion: Make a photo-copy of the etching and number and/or name the parts for us idiots, who don't know a beam from a bolster or cross-member. What you've got looks great! It's hard to write instructions for idiots, I know, I've had to do it. You have to forget you know what the parts are and how they go together. ;)
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If I could do that nice, I'd have every single thing the Erie ever owned!
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Stop shooting pics of this SP crap and etch up some CR cabin cars man.
Yes Mother
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/n6atc.jpg)
Enough of this Eastern crap, get back to the SP! ;)
Actually I was thinking of ordering one of the Bay windows so this tutorial is great. Btw Bob, I notice you plan to do an SP Flanger, I'm definitely interested in those.
Simon
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Bob,
Great work - and great looking kit!
Aloha,
--Greg
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Danger Will Robinson!
(http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/brainiac/Lost_In_Space_robot_body_1_2_2004.jpg)
Shields up on wallets.
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Bob,
Looks great, can't wait to see the rest.
Lucas
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Thats a nice N9, but what about the cuter little sister, the N11?
(http://hebners.net/CR/crN11/cr18451d.jpg)
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Now that the basic body shell is assembled, time to build and install the doors. Each door consists of an inner and an outer panel.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca12.jpg)
Once the doors a built, install the doors into opening from the inside. If you are going to pait or add details, do it now because the next steps will seal it tight.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca13.jpg)
On the inside of the sides are two slots where the Cupola End tabs interlock. Put them in loose for now.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca14.jpg)
Secure the Cupola Sides to the Ends
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca15.jpg)
Take the long roof and bend it following the underside bend line. The proper angle can be set using the caboose ends. Secure the Roof End Facia. OK, one end of the Long Roof has two tabs and the Cupola End has two slots. Put the Roof tabs into the slots, center the Roof on the Caboose and secure.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca16.jpg)
Use the same procedure and secure the Short Roof onto the caboose
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca17.jpg)
More later guys & gals.
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How hard would it be to make the roof removable so that one can get in if maintenance of one sort or another is required?
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Anyone know a really cheap resistance soldering iron? I will need it with the NYC bay and transfer cabs coming.
Bob, wonderful stuff. What else do you have up your sleve? I'll purchase anything that ran on Conrail.
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Daniel,
Save yourself $150-$200 by buying the Resistance iron at www.mro2go.com. The American Beauty # you will want is 10599. This is a 100Watt with micro-tweezers.
http://mro2go.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=13810599120&Category_Code=&Search=10599&Search_Type=AND&Offset=0 (http://mro2go.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=13810599120&Category_Code=&Search=10599&Search_Type=AND&Offset=0)
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Attach the Cupola End Detail Overlays ensuring the holes for the handrails line up. This view also gives a look at the Roof Fascia and the good view of the caboose end up to this point.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca18.jpg)
Attach the Cupola Side Detail Overlays ensuring the holes for the windows line up. Ensure the bottom of the Overlay is flush against the Caboose Side.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca19.jpg)
Insert two "wide" handrails into the holes in the Cupola Ends. Secure from the inside. Bend the Cupola Roof to fit. Center the roof to the Cupola and secure.
Do NOT add the Roof Railings or Walkway yet.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca20.jpg)
The walkways for the Long Roof and the Short Roof should be removed from the kit and the small attachments bent up under the Walkway. The image shows that attachments on one side have been bent under while the ones on the top half have not been bent yet. Do NOT bend the long attachments yet.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca21.jpg)
Study the following images to see how the Walkways are secured. The small attachments that were bent under the Walkway now rest on the Roof to compensate for the sloping Roof angle. Secure the Walkway to the Roof at the small attachments. Carefully bend the Walkways adjacent to the Cupola to match the Roof slope. Use the long attachments to secure these walkways to the Caboose side.
The overhang at the Caboose end actually has two bends. First is the Walkway End which is bent 90 degrees down to the Walkway. The long attachments on the Walkway End are then bent to the Roof Fascia and secured.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca22.jpg)
Repeat the process for the Short Walkway on the Short Roof.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca23.jpg)
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Thank you.
You've out 'Bob-ed' ;D me by far, the folding of the sheets is so elegant.
While your choice of prototypes doesn't excite me (sorry), the results do.
I don't expect you to give away trade secrets, but Chris and myself would like to know the etching techniques that are used, if you are privy to their secrets.
Bob in IDaho
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I think the main secret is the equipment.
Artwork takes time to draw, but the equipment makes it come to life.
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Well said Chris, but I must add the engineering that is involved. With the Micro-Mark kit out, anyone can etch brass. No secrets here. The difference that I see, IMHO, is the design to use layers of metal that have been etched to multiple levels. When placed together, the result can be like never seen before. Such as ...
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca27.jpg)
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Um, is it me or are the step side frames backward? It looks like the slots to hold the treads are outboard...
Lee
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Um, is it me or are the step side frames backward? It looks like the slots to hold the treads are outboard...
I was thinking that too. But the thought that the model would have open slot stair treads had me in suspense and I didn't want to say anything.
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Ahhh, You found the artwork error I said existed. I did say at the beginning that I would not cover-up mistakes and this tutorial was concentrated as a "How To" instead of "Buy This". A$$hat points to both of you.
I already corrected the artwork and if (and it is so far) the only error, I am very happy considering the engineering involved in my first caboose.
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I think the end handrails would look better if they were a single layer, too... Just a thought...
Lee
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Hmmm,
They are actually two half layers. Anyone else ??
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I am curious how you're going to etch a smokestack. ;D
Seriously, it's beautiful, and I'm up for two. Not to be a smarta$$, but I do have a few questions - Will it come with trucks and couplers? What's the option for body mounted couplers? What's the undercarriage detail look like (I noticed the slots in the framework for brakeline piping in one of the underside photos - nice - anything else)? Does it come with interior furnishings (a 1/2 tongue in cheek query)? Decals?
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I think the end handrails would look better if they were a single layer, too... Just a thought...
Lee
Yes, but I see why Bob made it the way it is. Maybe some creative filing and filling is in order.
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Bryan, you, a smart a$$. I would never think such a thing. 8)
I used two layers for the railings as a lamination is MUCH stronger and resists bending more that a single piece.
The caboose will not come with trucks or the required body-mounted Z-Scale couplers.
Here is the undercarriage MINUS the castings that are due to arrive in a few days (Reservoir, Actuator, Controller Valve, Air Hoses and .007 wire for the Plumbing).
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca11.jpg)
No interior, but Tivo is going to install electrical pickups and a hard drive so the operating sessions can be played back or the current session can be paused to allow the operator to use the restroom without missing anything.
Decals is still a ?? at this moment in time.
Smokestack will either be a casting or BYO from material. Simple to do.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/1400501.jpg)
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Bob is #1181 the HO version?
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Yes Tom, HO Challanger Brass with a going price of about $275.
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Bryan, you, a smart a$$.
Nope. Never. ;D
Thanks for the answers. My order still stands, but MT better release bulk packs of the Z scale couplers soon. Buying them in the small packs is getting mighty $$$.
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Hi Bob, I love the caboose tutorial.
The only thing I see that could be improved are the corners of the etchings. There are ways to compensate for the rounding that happens on the inside and outside corners. I didn't know if you were planning on doing this for the production run.
Jason
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Bob-
If I insult you, will you show us a 1950's era Southern bay window???!!!! ;D
Sure, Here ya go ...
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/SPC30601.jpg)
Bob-
You're asking for constructive criticism, and the only thing I wonder about is low tracking weight.
Would it be difficult to stuff weight below the floor? Or does sandwiching that much brass get you there
without adding additional weight?
Phil,
I dont know how much the caboose will weigh yet. I do have quite a bit of metal in the floors & undercarriage. My plan is to finish the caboose, weigh it and determine the amount of ballast. I'll post the weight needed. The weight would have to be placed inside the caboose on the upper floor. Placing weight between the two floors would affect ride height and make it look like a Micro-Trains instead of a TrainCat caboose. :-X
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...and make it look like a Micro-Trains instead of a TrainCat caboose.
I realize I'm about to date myself but... oooh, tight.
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Wait a minute, you told me you had a date with someone else tomorrow night...... oh,.... wait...
I guess you ARE about to date yourself... :-X
You'll get pimples that way, you know...
Lee
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OK,
You can go back to your Ed & Lee thread now.
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I thought my hand would fall off, that was what the priest said.
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Up to this point, you may have been looking at the corners of the caboose and not liked seeing all the layers at the joint. Neither do I. Fortunately for the model, it follows the prototype here. The next item to be installed is the Corner Fascia. This is half etched metal with a .001" dashed line down the middle to aid in bending. Bend the Fascia down the dashed line and install over the corners. Ensure the cutouts go around the holes for Railings.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca24.jpg)
Install two "Large" grabs near the top of the doorway. The caboose ends are slightly different. Each ends has it's own type of end Railings. More on that in a minute. What both types of Railings have in common is how they are designed and how they are attached to the caboose. Each Railing has a small support that must be bent 90 degrees to the Railing and then inserted in the appropriate hole. The supports are bent along the etched bend line. Study the photo.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca25a.jpg)
There are three "L" railings and one "h" shaped railing. Use the "h" railing on the end that has a hole above and left of the end door. Use a pair of tweezers and bend the Railing supports 90. The Railings are different in that you bend the support away from the bend line instead of into the bend line.
Secure the railings to the caboose end.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca25.jpg)
Study the photo for the End Railings. The blue lines indicate where to cut attachments. The red lines show where to find the half etched bend lines. End Railings are also different in that you bend the two halves away from the bend line instead of into the bend line.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca26a.jpg)
The End Railing goes up under the Porch Landing with the two center Stanchions going into the notches in the Landings. Secure the End Railing to the Landing. Secure the upright to the Roof Fascia.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca26.jpg)
Here is how it looks so far.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca27.jpg)
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Time to add the Steps. Remove then from the sprue. Notice the ends of the Steps have tabs and the Stair Braces have notches. Place the tabs of the Steps into the notches of the Stair Braces. Secure them.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca28.jpg)
Retrieve the following parts; Air Valve, Bumper, Small Grabs(2), Ladder and a length of etched Chain. Begin by bending the vertical pieces of the Ladder on the bend lines. The Ladder is different in that you bend the vertical piece away from the bend line instead of into the bend line.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca29a.jpg)
Look where the Ladder will go into the End Railing. Trim enough of the Railing away using rail nippers to fit the Ladder. Secure the Ladder first up top on the Roof Walkway, then secure to the Railing. Secure the horizontal bar to the Ladder.
Secure a length of chain across the center opening of the Railing.
The builder should have noticed a opening for the pipe from the Air Valve to pass through the Bumper. This goes on the right side of the caboose. Place the two Small Grabs in the Bumper and then place the Bumper on the caboose. Secure the Bumper on the LEFT SIDE ONLY. Once secure, remove the right Grab and secure the Air Valve to the Railing. The down pipe should go through the opening in the Bumper. Once secure, re-install the Small Grab into the Bumper over the down pipe.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca29.jpg)
Secure the curved Safety Railings to each corner of the caboose.
Almost finished, How does it look ??
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/spca30.jpg)
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(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/SPC30601.jpg)
a$$hat questions:
Since the body became one securely closed box with the ladders being attached. How will window glazing eventually be installed? Will the C-50-x final kit have the 'medium security prison' barricade ends as an option for those of us modeling beyond the roofwalk era?
On a far more personal level of interest. What trucks were planned for this model? I have a number of Kato caboose trucks on hand that your kits would definately inherit from my long delayed Con-Cor caboose rebuild program. And those trucks have the electrical pickup for lighting/transponder decoder to meet my eventual signalling/dispatching goals...
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The etchings looks great. I finally tried etching with 1 part muriatic acid, 2 parts hydrogen peroxide and it worked like a charm.
I think it was you would first gave this link:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/
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Yea, that was me Chris. BTW, I never did tell you what I use ... Hydrochloric Acid Straight!
Tivo, If doing anything in the interior I would not secure the Ladder at the bottom. I would NOT secure the Cupola Ends to the Caboose Sides. Leave them floating in the interior notches. That way the Roof would be secured to the Cupola as an all-in-one unit.
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Ooopps, Sorry Tivo. Forgot to answer about the trucks.
The kits are sold without trucks so it is whatever you want. The kit does have designed in accommodations for body mounted Z-Scale couplers.
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Somewhere in the thread I'm pretty certain you mentioned that these etchings have multiple levels of etching, so I assume there is etched from the front and etched from the back bits. So why do the fold lines for somethings have to be backward? Why not put the line where it should be on the other side of the piece?
Also the etched chain looks too big, out of scale.
On the end on pic under the caption which ends: "Once secure, re-install the Small Grab into the Bumper over the down pipe." why are the notches in the bend around corner pieces so far recessed from the actual holes they are meant to not cover? Ie, did you poorly install the corner piece or are those notches way too deep into the corner piece?
All in all a very nice looking model although I too am waiting for a CR xfer caboose.
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Somewhere in the thread I'm pretty certain you mentioned that these etchings have multiple levels of etching, so I assume there is etched from the front and etched from the back bits. So why do the fold lines for somethings have to be backward? Why not put the line where it should be on the other side of the piece?
Normally, you fold into a bend line when the bend is less than 135 degrees. For bends of 180 degrees, you must bend against the bend line otherwise the two pieces of metal can not lay flat. They pinch each other at the bend. Other times, you bend outward for better positioning of the piece or better display. The ladder is bent outward to expose and "pop out" the rungs. I screwed up and bent the first ladder inward. I do not like the looks, but hey, I warned that there might be goofs.
Also the etched chain looks too big, out of scale.
The chain is on the absolute edge of .010 metal being .0045 thick lines and 48LPI. I could do smaller with thinner metal, but that would drive the cost WAY up just for that. It is a compromise.
why are the notches in the bend around corner pieces so far recessed from the actual holes they are meant to not cover? Ie, did you poorly install the corner piece or are those notches way too deep into the corner piece?
Prototype Car!
I have already looked into this and could be difficult to correct as I find it to be out of my hands. The actual item(s) causing it is how tight did the builder get the edges when he folded the sides over and how well did he mate the corner edges. Each of these play together to how well the Corner Fascia fits. I have a beautiful fit on the opposite End. Knowing this, I will be pointing it out in the instructions.
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Hey, Bob-
Actually, I'm thinking of the Southern cab attached at the bottom...
Thanks for doing these kits. I figure it's the only way to get an accurate model of a limited prototype for an affordable price.
Looking forward to more!
Having fun,
-Phil Brooks
Bob-
If I insult you, will you show us a 1950's era Southern bay window???!!!! ;D
Sure, Here ya go ...
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/SPC30601.jpg)
(Attachment Link)
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Bob,
Sorry to hijack, but...
Does the straight Hydrochloric Acid work just as fast and do you still heat and agitate it?
Gotta a gallon here, need to try it out :D
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Sorry Chris, only one trade secret a month. ;D
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Bob,
Why not loose the chain etching altogether? I think it would look better if actual link chain, even if it is out of scale, is used instead of the solution you have there.
Also, Phil's right, Southern cabs are needed, especially the more modern varieties. They had something about them.
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Why not loose the chain etching altogether? I think it would look better if actual link chain, even if it is out of scale, is used instead of the solution you have there.
I'll try it on the other side.
They had something about them.
Bryan, you make it sound like a disease. ;D OK, who's going to get the good clear measured drawings?? What class??
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So why do the fold lines for somethings have to be backward? Why not put the line where it should be on the other side of the piece?
Sometimes a picture is more helpful in explaining something. Here's what happens when you make bends into or away from fold lines. Usually bends are made into the line to produce a clean edge; on occasion, bends are made away from the line for effect or because the angle of the bend is acute (at or nearly 180 degrees).
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/bend.gif)
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There is some of that chain in Bob's tank car platform. I thought if I put it in a pin vise and twisted it, that would make it look just like real chain... It didn't. There were extras so I had nothing to lose. The chain is very fine, I don't think it could look more realistic.
If anything I would maybe have it be drawn into one layer of the railings.
For Z scale I just used a squiggly line:
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/772/IMG_3125.jpg
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Bob - this is what I was referring to - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=189788&nseq=165 (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=189788&nseq=165) - but it's a later variety than Phil's example. IMO Southern's cabeese were more minimal in their lines, which I liked. And they seem longer and sleeker than other roads'.
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There is some of that chain in Bob's tank car platform. I thought if I put it in a pin vise and twisted it, that would make it look just like real chain... It didn't. There were extras so I had nothing to lose. The chain is very fine, I don't think it could look more realistic.
If anything I would maybe have it be drawn into one layer of the railings.
For Z scale I just used a squiggly line:
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/772/IMG_3125.jpg
Chris, the chain with the Tankcar Platforms is 35LPI. The chain used in the Caboose is 48LPI.
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OK, I have a gallon of FeCl, I also have about the same of HCl. I've read the links that Chris posted (and a few others). IIRC, I've also used ammonium persulphate ((NH4)2S2O8) to etch copper over 40 years ago.
I'm cheap (I must have been scoootish in a previous incarnation), I got an aquarium heater for a buck 3.80 (actually less), I have air available (including an aquarium bubbler). Soooo...
I'm also better at delegating than doing, well, actually, I'm better doing, but I'm lazy.
Soooo, again: Should I 'dispose' the FeCl? or use it until it runs out?
My etch tank would be vertical, using a bubbler to convey the heated etchant over the brass sheet.
My big question is resists. I've used KPR, Positop and uncountable other formulations. What is the best method to apply the resist now?
I know about iron-ons, but:
What do you use??
Bob in IDaho
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I would use the FeCl till it's dead.
I just try different things to make it etch faster. I get tired of waiting.
Other than the laminate resist films what others are there, got links?
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Gotta admit the cabooses potentially could impact my wallet.
Say, all this new stuff coming what about these that have been on the slate for "a while"?
http://traincat2.com/d_platformsignals.htm