TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: peteski on April 10, 2014, 05:13:00 AM
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Friend of mine bough one of those locos to be used as a switched for an industry on his DCC layout. it is not a bad model but he wasn't happy with the factory DCC decoder. He couldn't tune the speed range to his satisfaction. He likes Digitrax decoders, so I offered to retrofit it with a DZ125 decoder. Since I had the loco apart anyways, I also made few other modifications to make it run better.
The locomotive was extremely over-lubricated. Grease was everywhere! I took the trucks fully apart and degreased all the parts (including the frame halves). I also examined the electrical contacts in the truck frames. They were not springy enough to keep in good contact with the loco's frame. My first modification was to make them more springy. I accomplished that by grinding them to be narrower. I also cut slots in the pickups to elongate the contact strips. By making them narrower and longer, they were much more flexible. I then bent them until they were in good contact with the frame at all times.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204631-2748225.jpeg)
44t_pickups01.jpg
The truck on the left has the modified contact strip. Right one is unmodified.
Couple of hints on how to grind these strips down without ruining the truck:
1. I use a cutoff wheel in a Dremel tool, but for precise grinding (like needed here) I do not use a full-diameter wheel. When I use cutoff wheels for larger and less precise jobs, I let them wear out to couple of smaller diameters (like 2/3, 1/2 and even smaller), then I save them for use later (like for this job). Here I used a cutoff wheel of about 2/3 of original diameter here.
2. When grinding, do it at reduced speed for better control and less heating (and possibly melting plastic). Grind very lightly (not much pressure), and make sure to grind in a direction or rotation which will not kick up the thin metal strip. In this example, I held the Dremel on the left side of the truck as it shown in the photo above.
To thin the right side of the finger I used the inner surface (one on the Dremel tool's side) as a grinding wheel. To thin the left side of the metal finger I would have used the opposite side of the cutoff wheel (facing to the outside). After thinning, I ground the slots extending the length of the finger by gently using the outside edge of the cutoff wheel. Don't apply too much pressure so the metal pickup piece does not heat up and melt the gear case.
Next were the frame halves. I sanded and polished the metal areas which will be in contact with the truck's pickup strips. I find that this produces a more reliable contact - better than just burnishing these areas. Plus, the polishing compound seems to prevent further oxidation.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204631-27482042.jpeg)
44t_pickups02.jpg
Next was the decoder conversion. I like clean installs, so I designed and etched a printed circuit board to replace the factory installed decoder. It will hold the DZ125, new warm-white LEDs, the over-current protector for the motor, and the current limiting resistors for the LEDs. I originally thought of eliminating the over-current protector (the yellow disc), but if Bachmann bothered to use it to protect the small motor, I didn't want to take any chances either.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204630-2744129.jpeg)
44t_dcc01.jpg
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204630-2746937.jpeg)
44t_dcc02.jpg
This is the new DCC board next to the original Bachmann decoder. It is amazing how many components there are on the very basic Bachmann decoder, and how large it is compared to the DZ125 (which has much more advanced capabilities).
Here is the new decoder attached (by the original screws) the the frame. I had to file down the screw posts on the frame slightly to give me enough clearance for the decoder and the LEDs.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204631-27461992.jpeg)
44t_dcc03.jpg
The last item I wanted to change was the coupler. Not only is the Bachmann pseudo-McHenry "boxing glove" coupler ugly and large, it is also a bit stiff when coupling and uncoupling (which is what this loco constantly does on the layout).
I figured out a way to retrofit it with the offset shank (2001?) MT coupler. I could have used a Z scale coupler, but for the sake of reliable coupling I used the N scale coupler.
First, I cut off the post inside the coupler box. Then I enlarged the hole until the post in the Bachmann shell fit inside the hole. I also had to enlarge the coupler opening in the pilot to be able to install the MT coupler box. I just had to trim the sides of the opening.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204628-27291268.jpeg)
44t_coupler01.jpg
I then carefully assembled the coupler and the spring in the coupler box. This was a bit of a pain, but I finally managed.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204628-27291198.jpeg)
44t_coupler02.jpg
I then installed the coupler box cover and fastened it using the original Bachmann coupler screw. The only problem is that because the Bachmann's coupler post doesn't extend all the way to the new coupler box cover, the cover can shift a bit to the front and back. This messes up the coupler centering. I aligned the top and bottom part of the MT coupler box, then using a soldering iron, I welded the box halves together. That way they will stay aligned.
While it is still a bit large and sticks out a bit far, it looks better than the Bachmann coupler, and it will also work smoother.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204629-27441342.jpeg)
44t_coupler03.jpg
My friend told me that the loco now runs better than ever. :)
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"making it better" I thought you were gonna norrow the hood :D
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"making it better" I thought you were gonna norrow the hood :D
That's funny Chris! :) I didn't say "more prototypical" :P
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Neat job on that PC board, Peteski. I've been looking into that for other DCC conversions also but I don't have the stuff to make my own boards. Yet.
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... It is amazing how many components there are on the very basic Bachmann decoder ...
Don't forget most of that junk on the top of the board is for RFI suppression to meet Euro appliance guidelines. Chokes and high-value caps don't miniaturize well. :|
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Pretty awesome.
I really dig the hand-drawn circuit board, and how effective it is in this situation.
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Pretty awesome.
I really dig the hand-drawn circuit board, and how effective it is in this situation.
+1
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Nice work Peteski. Any chance you'd be willing to create and sell some of those replacement boards preassembled?
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What he said
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Nice job, Pete! :)
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Very nice work. Did you use one of those ink pens to draw out your PC board? I haven't done that since
the 1970s, but it sure is handy for small one-shot boards like this. Looks very neat.
What do you use to polish the metal? I really like the look of those contact surfaces. That would be a great
thing to try on the undersides of some Kato diesels and other engines that depend on truck frames rubbing
on the split frame to make contact.
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Also like the PC board . I have MM etch stuff , 5 years old at least , some day maybe i'll read up and use it when I get an itch to etch but when is still sketchy .
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So now you can see thru the cab?
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Can't wait to build a 65-tonner from the 44T and 70T models...
(http://southernmodeler.info/GE_65T_center_cab.gif)
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I like that conversion. I've got one sitting on my desk waiting for me to build a switching layout, and what little I've run it I find quite frustrating. Jackrabbit starts, very little slow speed control, and dull headlamps.
I'll be the third to ask about having a board printed...
And yeah, the Bachmann decoder looks like it's built with vacuum tubes and snap relays... :facepalm:
Lee
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Can't wait to build a 65-tonner from the 44T and 70T models...
Yeah, I need a 65-tonner too.
(http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/85220/IMG7323ii.jpg)
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Don't forget most of that junk on the top of the board is for RFI suppression to meet Euro appliance guidelines. Chokes and high-value caps don't miniaturize well. :|
That is not entirely accurate. The RFI suppression is done using 2 very small caps and 2 chokes. That is a standard suppression circuit. Compared to its overall size, the RFI component do not take up a significant part of space in this decoder. Funny thing is that Bachmann uses the same brand of microcontroller that is used by Digitrax. It is just that they use larger versions of all the components. Resistors, caps, transistors, diodes and even the microcontroller are in physically larger packages. The overall component count (like you've mentioned) is also much higher.
This all goes against the goal of making the decoder as inexpensive as possible. Larger components do not really cost less money than the smaller ones. The large component count also probably makes the decoder overall more expensive to manufacture then the equivalent (but much better) Digitrax DZ125. To be honest, I'm really surprised that the the Chinese didn't simply copy one of the much simpler (thus cheaper) decoders - like the DZ125. Obviously, I do not have all the facts to figure out why Bachmann did what they did
So now you can see thru the cab?
Well, yes, I can now see through those way undersized windows. :) If you look hard, you can also see the electronic components, but you do see the light coming from the windows in the opposite side. But you can get the same effect, even with the original decoder. You just have to remove the black piece of plastic from the cab. To do that you first have to remove the cab (which is quite a challenge). In order to pop the cab off I ended up cutting off couple of the cab's mounting tabs which engage the walkway.
Nice work Peteski. Any chance you'd be willing to create and sell some of those replacement boards preassembled?
Well, how much would you be willing to pay for this conversion (especially considering the low price of this model)? :)
I suppose I could build half a dozen, but for that it would make sense for me to instead of hand-drawing, draw the boards on the computer and use the more complex photoetching method. For even a larger quantity I would have to farm out the PC board manufacturing to one of the prototyping PC boards manufacturers. That would get even more expensive. Plus, I would have to allocate some of my hobby time to this. That is the largest obstacle. I have to admit that doing even a small run doesn't look good at this point (unless I stop spending my hobby time on the online forums). :D
Neat job on that PC board, Peteski. I've been looking into that for other DCC conversions also but I don't have the stuff to make my own boards. Yet.
Also like the PC board . I have MM etch stuff , 5 years old at least , some day maybe i'll read up and use it when I get an itch to etch but when is still sketchy .
Guys, it isn't all that difficult to etch your own hand-drawn circuit boards (like the one I used in this loco). No need for MM etching kit. All you need is some etching solution (I think Radio Shack still carries it), some blank PC board material, an old fashion inkwell drafting pen and some hobby paint, and a small container for the etching process.
Very nice work. Did you use one of those ink pens to draw out your PC board? I haven't done that since
the 1970s, but it sure is handy for small one-shot boards like this. Looks very neat.
What do you use to polish the metal? I really like the look of those contact surfaces. That would be a great
thing to try on the undersides of some Kato diesels and other engines that depend on truck frames rubbing
on the split frame to make contact.
Thanks Max!
To polish the frame, I start of with a mill file (if needed), Then I move onto a 4-way emery board for fingernails (purchased in a beauty supply store) :D I use Tropical Shine brand.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817052355-1794362.jpeg)
The final polishing is done using a Tob Brite polishing paste and a buffing wheel in a Dremel tool.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817052342-17931091.jpeg)
As for what I use to draw traces on the blank board, here is a short tutorial (which I originally posted on the A-board).
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=64393&whichpage=2 (http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=64393&whichpage=2)
A-board is now gone. :x
I tried the photresist pens (like Sharpie) and I found that they don't give sufficient coverage (the ink in them is not solid enough so the etchant starts to attack copper areas which are supposed to be protected).
Also tried rub-on dry transfers. Those worked better but were pain in the a$$ to work with and sometimes they left behind waxy residue which acted as etchant resist.
If I want a very simple one-off printed circuit board I use a plain old gloss green Testors PLA enamel (thinned slightly with some Testors thinner) applied directly to the copper clad board using an old fashion inkwell drafting pen. Mom used to use these for technical drawings many years ago and now I found a new use for them. Why green paint? Because it had it handy and it shows up well on copper. Notice the price on the bottle cap - that gives an idea of how long I had that bottle!. :) Here's a photo of what I use.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817051059-1778878.jpeg)
Here is a closeup of the inkwell drafting pen. I just dip it in the paint bottle then wipe the outside of the blades with a piece of paper towel. Then I adjust the screw for the line thickness I want (testing on a scrap piece of PC board. I then draw the traces/pads directly on the copper clad PC board.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817051059-1780142.jpeg)
I start by drawing the PC board in 1:1 scale on paper. I then cut a piece of blank PC board to the size I need. I clean the copper cladding very well before drawing the traces and then don't touch it with my fingers (to prevent contamination of the copper layer). I use a slightly abrasive copper cleaner made for polishing kitchen pots. I then often outline the pads and traces on the bare copper using either a pencil or a sharp scriber (very, very lightly). Then, while wearing a rubber glove on the hand which is holding the board, or I hold it through a piece a paper I draw the pads and traces with the technical pen.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-170717034629-1432381.jpeg)
Next, when the paint is dry, I pour some etching solution into a shallow plastic container large enough for the board I'm etching. I often use the clear plastic blisters cut from various packages. Blisters from items such as Micro-Trains trucks or couplers are perfect size for etching tiny PC boards. I then float the PC board upside down on the surface of the enchant. Since the fiberglass/epoxy board is translucent, I can easily tell when the etching process is complete. Etching takes between 15 minutes and 1 hour (depending on the thickness of the copper cladding and the ambient temperature). Finally I rinse the etched board, and clean up the paint using lacquer thinner.
Here is an example of couple of tiny circuit boards created using the method I described above. It'll be used to hold tiny SMD LEDs and resistors used for locomotive headlights. It makes it easier to mount the LED inside the loco body and it gives a good place to solder wires which will be routed to DCC decoder.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817051900-1791314.jpeg)
When I need a more complex circuit board or if I need more than one board, I use a more advanced method. I lay out the traces on my computer (using Corel Draw) and I print it out on a transparency using my Alps printer. Here is an example of such design.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/1/2700-030817051059-1778704.jpeg)
For this method I take a well-cleaned copper-clad board and I coat it with a layer photo resist (from aerosol can).
Then I place the photomask I printed directly on the sensitized PC board. It then gets exposed to UV light and then it gets developed. I use positive-acting resist so the photoresist on all the non-exposed areas (where photmask was black) will remain on the copper and all exposed areas will be washed away exposing bare copper. Then I immerse the PC board in copper etchant which will etch away all the areas not covered by the photo resist. After copper is etched away I then have to remove the leftover photoresist and I end up with a nicely etched board.
I use Ferric Chloride for etching copper (Radio Shack carries it).
Photoresist is from Electrolube (British company) http://www.electrolube.com/products/maintenance-service-aids/188/29/ (http://www.electrolube.com/products/maintenance-service-aids/188/29/) I don't know if they still distribute it in USA.
Standard copper-clad PC boards are 1/16" thick. That is bit too thick for me. I use much thinner boards. Like 0.032", 0.020" or even thinner. Those are harder to find (at surplus prices), but they often show up at electronic surplus websites like http://www.goldmine-elec.com/ (http://www.goldmine-elec.com/) or http://www.allelectronics.com/
(http://www.allelectronics.com/)
There are several other methods for producing PC boards (like iron-on transfers) but I never got into those. The bottom line is that for simple one-of PC boards hand-drawn artwork is quick and easy.
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Well, how much would you be willing to pay for this conversion (especially considering the low price of this model)? :)
Looking at the parts: DZ125, 2 LEDs, 2 resistors, board, shipping (to you), tax, etchant, etc. - I estimate a cost to you of around $35. Assuming that the over-current protector would be my job to remove from the old board and solder to your board, I would be willing to pay $50 (+ shipping) for the replacement board.
I know the model does not cost much more than that, but given its role of yard switcher, it will be used a lot and good operations will be crucial. I can replace the decoder myself for under $30 but it would be "sloppy". :facepalm: To have a nice "drop-in" solution with upgraded lighting would be worth the extra price (at least to me)
And Heaven knows I'm not asking you to give up any of your online forum time! We're all guilty of spending too much time on that :D
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Peteski,
I follow. Nice. The inkwell pen... wow.
Nice tip on just using Testor's enamel. I have used the Sharpie type pens for this, and they work,
but like you said, you have to really work at it to keep traces from being eroded.
As for making small batches of PC boards (not hundreds, but maybe 20), I give a big thumbs up
top those iron-on kits. I have used Press-n-Peel PnP Blue. You draw your art on the computer, print
it out on a laser (can NOT be ink jet), or print it on paper and take it to a copy center where
they are friendly enough to put the sheet of PnP film in their hopper, and photocopy the art
onto the PnP sheet. Then you just iron it onto the copper and etch like you do with your hand-draw boards.
It makes for really neat, fine work. I was surprised at how good it preserves fine lines.
I wouldn't do a motherboard with it ( heh! ) but for a small board with a bunch of discrete components,
or a few ICs, it works great.
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Nice and clean and elegant, I like it! Still, a lot of work.
One of the simplest things do improve this particular model is to add weight to improve electrical conductivity, operation and tractive effort. I slapped some tungsten weights on the bottom; there is room under the tank and the weight just clears the rails. Paint it black and call it a day...
8)
Otto K.
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The coupler conversion is a fantastic idea. I'll be removing the ginormous McHenry's I had installed and going this route. As for the decoder-- I retrofitted in the Digitrax DZ123M0. (At about $28.00) Minimal effort-- great performance.
My 2 pennies,
Wolf
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I love this kind of resourcefulness. When I last did circuit boards, I did them via an online service. If you are making several, it is very cost effective, but this solution is perfect for a single board.
For those of us without a supply of 30 cent Testors ( :o), I wonder if nail polish would work?
"Colossal Buffer"- I could see a clever header image in that. Only men (modellers) use beauty supplies for trains!
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I love this kind of resourcefulness. When I last did circuit boards, I did them via an online service. If you are making several, it is very cost effective, but this solution is perfect for a single board.
For those of us without a supply of 30 cent Testors ( :o), I wonder if nail polish would work?
"Colossal Buffer"- I could see a clever header image in that. Only men (modellers) use beauty supplies for trains!
I got a kick out of that 30 cents price on the Testors cap. I haven't seen that since I painted Aurora plastic
monster model kits in the early 70s.
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I love this kind of resourcefulness. When I last did circuit boards, I did them via an online service. If you are making several, it is very cost effective, but this solution is perfect for a single board.
For those of us without a supply of 30 cent Testors ( :o), I wonder if nail polish would work?
"Colossal Buffer"- I could see a clever header image in that. Only men (modellers) use beauty supplies for trains!
Thanks Scott! As far as nail polish goes, that is a "maybe". I had to thin the gloss green Testors PLA enamel slightly to make it flow better. Nail polish is even more viscous, so I imagine it would have to be thinned too. Plus, nail polish dries faster than Testors gloss enamels (has a more volatile solvent), so it might start skinning over while still in the pen. But it would sure be worth a try. I do use thinned nail polishes for airbrushing bodies of model cars I build.
As far as your last statement goes (about only men), I suspect that Karin (and other female modeler TRW members) are way ahead of us men when it comes to creative modeling uses for beauty supplies. ;)
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Looking at the parts: DZ125, 2 LEDs, 2 resistors, board, shipping (to you), tax, etchant, etc. - I estimate a cost to you of around $35. Assuming that the over-current protector would be my job to remove from the old board and solder to your board, I would be willing to pay $50 (+ shipping) for the replacement board.
I know the model does not cost much more than that, but given its role of yard switcher, it will be used a lot and good operations will be crucial. I can replace the decoder myself for under $30 but it would be "sloppy". :facepalm: To have a nice "drop-in" solution with upgraded lighting would be worth the extra price (at least to me)
And Heaven knows I'm not asking you to give up any of your online forum time! We're all guilty of spending too much time on that :D
LOL!
Looks to me like you arrived at a fair price. I won't get rich, but I won't be losing money either. If the other couple of people who expressed their interest in this conversion also get on board, I'll make a small batch of these boards. But I can't really commit to a time frame. And yes, you would have to unsolder the over-current protector from the Bachmann decoder and solder it to my adapter board.
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Well, yes, I can now see through those way undersized windows. :) If you look hard, you can also see the electronic components, but you do see the light coming from the windows in the opposite side. But you can get the same effect, even with the original decoder. You just have to remove the black piece of plastic from the cab. To do that you first have to remove the cab (which is quite a challenge). In order to pop the cab off I ended up cutting off couple of the cab's mounting tabs which engage the walkway.
Looks like I had a senior moment (and I did this conversion only few weeks back). I just took apart another 44 tonner, and now I see my mistake. :facepalm:
The black plastic piece which covers the cab windows is attached to the decoder board. It comes out of the shell when the chassis (with the decoder) is pulled out of the shell. That piece houses the over-current protector. Still, it can be removed to allow some light to shine through the cab (but some of the view through the cab will be blocked by the over-current protector).
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I'd be interested in one and I'm in no hurry, so, if you're willing to do another. 8)
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Pete,
I'd be interested in the etched board only. I can do the rest of it myself.
Jon
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Pete,
Fantastic job. I love your work.
I was studying what you did.
I wonder, if it is not possible to compress the components to the left.
In other words, move the decoder to the left away from the middle. Then you could remove the "cover" you were frustrated about and just insert a black painted hunk of lead weight in the cab- with Kapton tape on the board under the weight of course.
This would significantly add to the weight of the loco I would think.
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Pete,
Fantastic job. I love your work.
I was studying what you did.
I wonder, if it is not possible to compress the components to the left.
In other words, move the decoder to the left away from the middle. Then you could remove the "cover" you were frustrated about and just insert a black painted hunk of lead weight in the cab- with Kapton tape on the board under the weight of course.
This would significantly add to the weight of the loco I would think.
Thanks Ron!
Both hoods slope slightly towards the ends, so there is less clearance the farther you go away from the center. While designing the board I mounted a blank board on the chassis and then I pushed a decoder in under the hood until it jammed. Then I backed it out slightly (to leave a tiny bit of clearance. I already filed down the PC board mounting posts on the chassis to mount the PC board as close to the chassis as possible. I will revisit this while making the 2nd batch of these boards, but I suspect that unless I use thinner decoder, I won't be able to fully move it under the hood.
I wasn't the one lamenting the black cab insert. I removed it in my conversion. The question was whether it was removed to see the daylight through the cab (and it was removed). Like you said, it could be replaced by a weight. That might be a good idea, but that was not the question at the time.
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I would be interested in one for sure!
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Both hoods slope slightly towards the ends, so there is less clearance the farther you go away from the center. While designing the board I mounted a blank board on the chassis and then I pushed a decoder in under the hood until it jammed. Then I backed it out slightly (to leave a tiny bit of clearance. I already filed down the PC board mounting posts on the chassis to mount the PC board as close to the chassis as possible. I will revisit this while making the 2nd batch of these boards, but I suspect that unless I use thinner decoder, I won't be able to fully move it under the hood.
Excellent thinking.
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Next was the decoder conversion. I like clean installs, so I designed and etched a printed circuit board to replace the factory installed decoder. It will hold the DZ125, new warm-white LEDs, the over-current protector for the motor, and the current limiting resistors for the LEDs. I originally thought of eliminating the over-current protector (the yellow disc), but if Bachmann bothered to use it to protect the small motor, I didn't want to take any chances either.
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u449/peteski7/Railwire/44tonner/44t_dcc01_zpsc6b5809f.jpg)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u449/peteski7/Railwire/44tonner/44t_dcc02_zpsaa075003.jpg)
This is the new DCC board next to the original Bachmann decoder. It is amazing how many components there are on the very basic Bachmann decoder, and how large it is compared to the DZ125 (which has much more advanced capabilities).
Here is the new decoder attached (by the original screws) the the frame. I had to file down the screw posts on the frame slightly to give me enough clearance for the decoder and the LEDs.
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u449/peteski7/Railwire/44tonner/44t_dcc03_zpscd35b6e7.jpg)
I'm an electrical novice, but I want to try to etch my own board for my 44 tonner, and for my S4. From what I read so far, I can draw out the board and print it on a transparency using a laser printer. I can then use an iron to transfer the ink over to the new board.
Where do I find the current limiting resistors, and how do I determine which ones I need? I wouldn't mind picking up a few of those LEDs too!
Thanks!
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jmlaboda and Reinhardt, what will you do to your shells to make 65 ton GE's?
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I'm an electrical novice, but I want to try to etch my own board for my 44 tonner, and for my S4. From what I read so far, I can draw out the board and print it on a transparency using a laser printer. I can then use an iron to transfer the ink over to the new board.
Where do I find the current limiting resistors, and how do I determine which ones I need? I wouldn't mind picking up a few of those LEDs too!
Thanks!
Piperguy:
The PC board shown in this writeup was hand-drawn directly on the copper-clad PC board using a technical pen and Testors enamel. But you are correct, there are iron-on methods for producing etch masks on PC boards. I have never used that method. If you do some online searches you will find several makers of such etching systems. I recommended http://www.pcbfx.com/ (http://www.pcbfx.com/) to one of the members here and he told me that the system worked great.
This reminds me that one of these days I have to get back to this project as I have few TRW members waiting for some of those PC boards from me. :facepalm:
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I've use PnpBlue from this place: http://www.techniks.com/ (http://www.techniks.com/)
Worked really well and could handle traces fine enough to do a standard 0.1" pin spacing IC.
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Piperguy:
The PC board shown in this writeup was hand-drawn directly on the copper-clad PC board using a technical pen and Testors enamel. But you are correct, there are iron-on methods for producing etch masks on PC boards. I have never used that method. If you do some online searches you will find several makers of such etching systems. I recommended http://www.pcbfx.com/ (http://www.pcbfx.com/) to one of the members here and he told me that the system worked great.
This reminds me that one of these days I have to get back to this project as I have few TRW members waiting for some of those PC boards from me. :facepalm:
That's a really cool system! I'll look into it. What about the resistors? Which ones did you use for the 44 tonnor? How would I determine which resistors to use for the Bachman S4? Thanks for your help!
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That's a really cool system! I'll look into it. What about the resistors? Which ones did you use for the 44 tonnor? How would I determine which resistors to use for the Bachman S4? Thanks for your help!
Oops - forgot that one. I used 1000 ohm (1K ohm) 1206 SMD (Surface Mount Device) size resistors. The "102" imprinted on the resistor shown in those photos indicates its resistance. That is a "standard" value used with white LEDs in DCC installs (or even DC installs). It limits the LED current to around 10mA (which is plenty bright for most white LEDs). It is not critical and chosen to suit your taste in headlight brightness. Anything from around 560 ohms and up to several kilo-ohms will work.
The LEDs themselves were purchased as an electronic surplus item and are long gone at the place I bought them from (Electronic Goldmine). But there are many sources of warm-white SMD LEDs out there: both model railroad suppliers (like Ngineering) and electronic suppliers (like Digikey or Mouser Electronics). The ones I used in this install are 1206 SMD size, mounted on their side.
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For those of us without a supply of 30 cent Testors ( :o), I wonder if nail polish would work?
I've been using red enamel nail polish as resist for years.
All-Electronics and many others carry the powdered etchant.
Use a glass container to mix it in as it gets very warm
PS - I like Peteski's idea on using an inkewell drafting pen .
Al
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I then carefully assembled the coupler and the spring in the coupler box. This was a bit of a pain, but I finally managed.
Man, you weren't kidding.
I changed out mine tonight.
Thanks for the ideas.
BTW- I used 2004 couplers.
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jmlaboda and Reinhardt, what will you do to your shells to make 65 ton GE's?
Mostly just painting it the right number. If you compare dimensions between the 44 and 65 ton models you will find they are within inches of each other in some places and the same in others. The most noticeable difference other than the doors and vents is that the 65-ton has a thicker decking. I think the weight difference is nearly all in ballast comprising a the thicker deck.
65-ton:
(http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/85220/IMG7323ii.jpg)
44-ton:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Arcade_and_Attica_No._110.jpg)
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Top photo is a 44T, bottom photo is a longer loco.
But a 45T is shorter than a 44T.
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Mostly just painting it the right number. If you compare dimensions between the 44 and 65 ton models you will find they are within inches of each other in some places and the same in others. The most noticeable difference other than the doors and vents is that the 65-ton has a thicker decking. I think the weight difference is nearly all in ballast comprising a the thicker deck.
65-ton:
(http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/85220/IMG7323ii.jpg)
44-ton:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Arcade_and_Attica_No._110.jpg)
I agree, the Bachmann model presents as more of a 65 tonner than a 44 tonner. The window treatment aside, the deck and skirt are definitely more like a 65T. You could even get away with adding more skirting to hide the gap between truck and frame.
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44 tonner
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/Chris333_33/44tt001Nscale.jpg)
The GE 65 ton model was introduced in 1940, filling the gap between the 45 and 80ton models. It's design was very similar to that of the GE 44ton (introduced the same year), but was slightly longer (having narrow end walkways, which the 44ton lacked). and more powerful.
The 65ton in your photo is a II-A1 phase. II-A2 had 2 ladders on each side centered on the trucks. II-A3 had end ladders.
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Yep. It's the ladders and walkway that I use as a spotting feature between the two types.
It's amazing how many "44 tonners" turn out to actually be 65ers.
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Wait, you guys are saying the top photo is the 65-Tonner and the bottom one is the 44?? So, were the SP, PE and P&SR units not 44-Tonners? Everything I hold to be true is now in question....... :facepalm: ;)
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Wait, you guys are saying the top photo is the 65-Tonner and the bottom one is the 44?? So, were the SP, PE and P&SR units not 44-Tonners? Everything I hold to be true is now in question....... :facepalm: ;)
No no, the top one is the 44. The lower is the 65.
It's the ladders on the side that are the give away. If they're at the corners, it's a 44.
Ignore me. I was wrong.
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No no, the top one is the 44. The lower is the 65.
It's the ladders on the side that are the give away. If they're at the corners, it's a 44.
Top is 65 ton, bottom is 44. The giveaways are the thicker sill and heavier sprung trucks in the top photo.
Some 44 tonners had side ladders.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vqPjczz3E50/VVux_j_GEfI/AAAAAAAADJA/aMnlTYMnBF0/s640/StPUD441-640601St.%2BPaul%252C%2BMN%2BGE%2B44%2Bton%2B1941%2B380%2Bhp-1-1-1-F.jpg)
Jason
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Here are the phases of a 44 tonner
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/Chris333_33/44phases001.jpg)
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Easiest way to tell is look for the end walkway, if there isn't one, it's a 44 tonner, if there is, it's a 65 tonner.
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Okay, we still seem to have a 50/50 split on which one is the 44 Tonner. I find myself more confused than ever and, while it has good info, that 44 tonner phase sheet Chris posted is only adding to at least my confusion! :scared: :?
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https://www.thedieselshop.us/Arcade.HTML (https://www.thedieselshop.us/Arcade.HTML)
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The big difference is the small walkway in front of the hoods:
http://www.sssalesandleasing.com/locomotive-parts/65-ton-ge-locomotive-for-sale.php#
I didn't list all of the 65T phases either just the phase 1 sub-phases :P
Still the wheelbase of the 65T looks different than the 44T.
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Top photo is a 44T, bottom photo is a longer loco.
But a 45T is shorter than a 44T.
The other way around. Top is A&A 112 which is a GE 65-ton. Bottom is A&A 110 which is a GE 44-ton.
Top is 65 ton, bottom is 44. The giveaways are the thicker sill and heavier sprung trucks in the top photo.
Jason
Correct.
I'm assuming the A&A knows which is which. They bought 110 in 1941 new from GE. The 112 was built 1945 for the USN, bought used 1987-ish.
The labels I placed on the photos, while hard to see, were correct. Photo angle may play a part in some of the identification problems. The small walkway on the front and rear of 112 are hard to see.
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That is a confusing Phase table. If you look at the top of the hoods there is a clerestory curving up from the headlight and running back on the top of the hood,where the flat, elongated door like cover for the 44 ton engine cooling vent is. I can't find a definitive answer as to when and how long they were produced with that feature, but I'm pretty sure it was an interim phase of the early 65 ton. The later 65 tonners had stepwell equipped frames and a longer "porch" on them, as well as a large box on the deck in front of the cab, on the right side looking at the unit dead on from the side. Chris on that phase table he seems to have skipped the phase after -A2 and before -A3, where the units were equipped with 2 ladders on each side, "centered" over the trucks. This phase preceded moving the ladders to the ends of the frame.
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Thanks for the toot on the etching process you use . Once I get that pen I will finally try one for myself .
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That is a confusing Phase table. If you look at the top of the hoods there is a clerestory curving up from the headlight and running back on the top of the hood,where the flat, elongated door like cover for the 44 ton engine cooling vent is. I can't find a definitive answer as to when and how long they were produced with that feature, but I'm pretty sure it was an interim phase of the early 65 ton. The later 65 tonners had stepwell equipped frames and a longer "porch" on them, as well as a large box on the deck in front of the cab, on the right side looking at the unit dead on from the side. Chris on that phase table he seems to have skipped the phase after -A2 and before -A3, where the units were equipped with 2 ladders on each side, "centered" over the trucks. This phase preceded moving the ladders to the ends of the frame.
The clerestory is a 65T thing and on II-B models only.
65T phases
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4CDuXZXPeCT3nFlT3Z3Xhf-1P7jlvCQ9JZFSLrkR2JOEgNCenZiQMYSrvIjMz0zVWjA67Bcpa_aYjTNE_dYA6pJIZgIFbgMAE7GRZkE8571AFJBkkg-lNXOMrJgRB3hYn0taICP4uyZ7aT7SAH57y4AIoCDu-6G0C6y-wQDdHbs1bTNrO3CAXI_8kH9Dbc_4ISQQdUrDRDiEBfVsFG-_l2xsXxJ0mOyMLfo9mfciTJN03zt0Li13cxw3nbh8kGNODbfy_BWZ6LVSL5tlbUUbC2KthPERkza2pATEpj_Q7k0qHo9Oue2w5zE1KgrhBOHDD_T1yKQcrl4TXIEAOy50a4LbONwSeS2IjZHexx4fPJmGMsSDRzuC3n7LMETSPltY3HXJBnVIWTbQkyBWWAt92oUHAkfGA6YE8-NaUvwRWzV6pYDiZccF-V1b1ETu3d498J8uXnUNL4EwU1mfQtrsEEOZeEuwWHshjhUnIHGa-9ZMBh00EXZHx4M7VqEg6QI11mgaNMoUwR-6o7AWAcQGB8bQampVsV9FouH1l_KMDeZDRWunbJsFy5jRuJJcVtYlYpE7y2TDU3eEnopgL8tFY83By3rBgUkpRU2Fui6ocXE8ZuPk0kbD8Q=w1311-h950-no?.jpg)
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LOL!
Looks to me like you arrived at a fair price. I won't get rich, but I won't be losing money either. If the other couple of people who expressed their interest in this conversion also get on board, I'll make a small batch of these boards. But I can't really commit to a time frame. And yes, you would have to unsolder the over-current protector from the Bachmann decoder and solder it to my adapter board.
I assume if you did these, they are long since sold out?
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I assume if you did these, they are long since sold out?
No, they haven't been sold. I etched the boards some time ago, but haven't contacted all the interested parties yet. It's one of those projects that got done half way . . . I have too many of those projects! :facepalm: I still want to write up some instructions for those wanting to install their own decoder. I think I etched about 10 of these boards, but have to dig them out (from the pile of my partially completed projects) and see how many I really have. I'll also have to compile a list of the interested parties (from this thread), and I'll offer them on the first-come--first-serve basis.
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Me
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I'm still interested :)
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To be fair, I'll go through this thread and also check my PMs to compile a list of interested members. If any are left, I'll let you all know here.
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Does anyone offer an etched or printed replacement cab that fixes the window issue? And can you lower these any? The gap between truck and sidesill is pretty noticeable, IMO.
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I wish someone would print new hoods so that you can do the other phase of 44t. It seems like most of the 44t that SP had also had the radiator grills on the side of the hood, not the front (I didn't say all, just the ones I need to model)
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I wish someone would print new hoods so that you can do the other phase of 44t. It seems like most of the 44t that SP had also had the radiator grills on the side of the hood, not the front (I didn't say all, just the ones I need to model)
I've always thought the early phase hoods would be a great 3D printing project.
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The earlier phase is the one the CB&Q had....id be in for a couple decent prints.
Charlie Vlk
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hey Pete...just found this thread...and wow, very fine work!
if by chance you have any circuit boards left, after fulfilling those prior requests
i would be interested in one.
thanks for sharing
Gary
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The earlier phase is the one the CB&Q had....id be in for a couple decent prints.
Charlie Vlk
Maybe we should bring this up to Briggs? The earlier phase body and a replacement cab with better proportioned windows.
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Maybe we should bring this up to Briggs? The earlier phase body and a replacement cab with better proportioned windows.
Better cab would be most welcome. If not Briggs, how about @Lemosteam ?
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I looked through this thread and compiled a list of all the interested members (in chronological order).
@reinhardtjh
@dnhouston
@JMaurer1 requests 2
@wm3798
@towl1996 with decoder installed
central.vermont (already delivered)
@u18b
@chicken45 with decoder installed
@dariaphoebe requests 2
@glakedylan
I just have enough boards to cover those requests.
Late request: @R L Smith requests 2 (standby)
Late request: @Mike the Modeler (standby)
The cost will be $15 for the PC board populated with the warm white LEDs and resistors, and the actual shipping cost (USPS Priority Mail).
If you don't feel up to soldering the decoder yourself (it is a rather delicate board, and I don't have any spares) I can install the decoder for you. The decoder will be one of the small 6-pin NEM651 decoders available at https://store.sbs4dcc.com/NEM651-NMRA6-pin.aspx (https://store.sbs4dcc.com/NEM651-NMRA6-pin.aspx)
Not all decoders listed there will work (some are too large). I know that decoders from Digitrax, ZIMO, ESU will work, but Soundtraxx and TCS might be slightly too large. Also keep in mind that the "blue" positive signal from the decoder will will need to be soldered to the PC board. It is not included in the 6-pin interface.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204630-2746937.jpeg)
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/2/2700-231017204631-27461992.jpeg)
I will PM each one of you to work out the details, but please keep in mind that this might take some time (few more weeks). I just wanted to give a status update to all interested parties. Once I have a complete list of decoders needed, I'll purchase them from SBS. Payment will be collected when the assemblies are ready for shipping.
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I looked through this thread and compiled a list of all the interested members (in chronological order).
@reinhardtjh
@peteski You can give my spot to the next person in line. I kind of have the hankering to do it myself one of these days (I'll be wanting to see if a ESU Nano will fit. ;) ). And if I do, I'll probably have 2-3 that I want to do since the A&A has had 2 44-t, a 65-t and now an 80-t over the years.
Thanks for thinking of me though. I appreciate it.
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Awesome, @peteski ! I'll ask you to install a decoder. I will await your PM (no hurry!).
Thank you for doing this for everyone!
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I'm still in...probably for two.
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I'm still in...probably for two.
Ok, since John gave up his, I have 2 available for you.
Also, the circuit board I used on the install documented in this thread was hand-drawn. The PC board I'll be using for all ya-all will look like this.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/24/2700-230621144034-243692093.jpeg)
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thanks Pete
i appreciate it and await your email
sincerely
Gary
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Thanks. I'll hold mine in reserve, although it may not be something high on my priority list. I like the transparency of the Bachmann decoder when operating on the old DC layout, and I don't have much call to run DCC these days. If the new decoder can be fully dual mode, then I'll jump, but I've found that most decoders gum up the works and I don't want to risk damaging the board or the motor by running it on DC.
I'm not above buying a second copy to have one for each operating system, but again, not an immediate priority.
Lee
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In case there is a "wait list", I would like to be added to that for a quantity of two.
Ron
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Just so there arent' any misunderstandings:
I made a batch of boards and have 10 spares. I offered those extras to the interesting parties. No more boards will be produced. Throughout the thread it just happens that 10 people requested those boards (I counted on one each). If someone opts out now, the board will become available to someone else on the list (members who asked for more than one board). I highly doubt that I will end up with any decoders to fulfill additional requests.
@wm3798 : From the time I started dabbling in DCC (over 20 years ago) to the present time, *ALL* the decoders are "dual mode". They run on DCC and DC. Non-sound decoders handle DC well because their internal computer circuits can run on much lower voltages than sound decoders. Sound decoders will operate on DC, but not all that well. By "running well" I mean on pure DC, from around 3V to 12V. Unfiltered rectified DC, or pulse DC can often confuse the decoder. Some brands deal with "impure" DC better than others. Since in this example only non-sound decoders, they should run ok on DC.
So Lee, your request is sort of vague. I guess I'll PM you (a bit later) to get a more solid response from you. Judging by what you just posted, I suspect that the original Bachmann decoder will suit you just fine. Most people like a decoder upgrade for better motor control, and more flexible features (like the V-MID and V-MAX, PWM frequency, etc.) and to have a decoder that is similar to other decoders they use on their layout. I'm not trying to talk you out of getting the upgraded board, but I suspect it will not make much difference to you.
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To keep matters simple, I will defer to the next chap in line.
I have enough projects to see me through to the horizon, no need to add one that's purely optional.
Lee
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Thanks @peteski , I'm still interested. And would like one with the decoder installed. :D
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I made a batch of boards and have 10 spares. I offered those extras to the interesting parties. No more boards will be produced. Throughout the thread it just happens that 10 people requested those boards (I counted on one each). If someone opts out now, the board will become available to someone else on the list (members who asked for more than one board). I highly doubt that I will end up with any decoders to fulfill additional requests
Peteski, that was always understood. But not to ask is not to receive, so I threw my name in the hat in case other folks had changed their plans. Didn't mean to complicate the plumbing...
RLS
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Pete,
Please add me to your list for any unclaimed boards.
Mike
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Pete....have not heard anything....i posted my interest in a board....just making sure you got me in the list if there are any left.
thanks
Gary
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Pete....have not heard anything....i posted my interest in a board....just making sure you got me in the list if there are any left.
thanks
Gary
I got your request Gary. See https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=32605.msg714238#msg714238 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=32605.msg714238#msg714238)
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ah, yes....darn, one of those senior memory moments. thanks Pete! :facepalm: :oops:
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Mine are off being painted and decalled now (Claremont & Concord) so, thank you much for doing the decoders!
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Mine are off being painted and decalled now (Claremont & Concord) so, thank you much for doing the decoders!
Good to know Daria - thanks for the follow up, and you're welcome.
To update the rest of individuals waiting for their decoder boards, they are all packed and ready to be mailed, but I first want to create a basic installation instructions since there is a slight chassis modification required. Stand by just a bit longer please.
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Pete,
This has ended up being a big job for you.
Thank you for your time.
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Finally put tungsten cubes in the cabs of mine today and I have magnets under the fuel tanks, with metal strips to mount under the track on my steep grade. Plus they’ll be doubleheaded. Hopefully that’s enough.
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Finally put tungsten cubes in the cabs of mine today and I have magnets under the fuel tanks, with metal strips to mount under the track on my steep grade. Plus they’ll be doubleheaded. Hopefully that’s enough.
Magnets under the fuel tanks and metal strips under the track? Huh? :o
Otto K.
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Finally put tungsten cubes in the cabs of mine today and I have magnets under the fuel tanks, with metal strips to mount under the track on my steep grade. Plus they’ll be doubleheaded. Hopefully that’s enough.
Interesting idea.
Sounds like an idea @Lemosteam floated years ago, sort of a version of Lionel's O Gauge Magne-Traction. I believe similar idea is also used in T Gauge trains. Let us know how your implementation works
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Magnets under the fuel tanks and metal strips under the track? Huh? :o
Otto K.
Think Lionel 1956 magnetic traction. On my 1956 SW-7(?) all wheels were magnetic.
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Ahahahaha.
Ancient history!
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Magnets under the fuel tanks and metal strips under the track? Huh? Otto K.
From the UK: https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/specialised-model-accessories/dccconcepts-powerbase/ (https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/specialised-model-accessories/dccconcepts-powerbase/)