TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: Ed Kapuscinski on January 13, 2010, 05:57:39 PM
-
As alluded to in another thread, here's my first draft of a layout plan.
Here's the image:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WgFUv6ShVco/S01D_U8wxNI/AAAAAAAAKqc/fdAVaAD6uSE/s800/First-Draft.jpg) (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/j8pyZmYTKDHyjeJNDdbnrQ?feat=embedwebsite)
Most importantly, there's lots of loose ends intentionally left in the plan. It really was a design drawn up to see how the track and various elements would fit into the space.
With that said, here's what you're looking at, from the top going clockwise:
First up is the 6 turn 18"radius helix coming up from staging (TBD later). I've thought about maybe double tracking it though, just to ease traffic flow.
The track then hits an unnamed control point where it fans out to three tracks, the upper most representing Washington DC (and Potomac Yard in Alexandria Virginia), the middle track being the Baltimore Penn Station track (for Amtrak and MARC trains), and the bottom track that represents the freight line to Bayview Yard. This control point would be sceniced in a way to make it a non-focal point. I've been thinking about starting the ramp down before this point, so that I can use the area above the track as an industrial switching area.
Moving around the corner we get to CP Vern. This is where the track to DC splits off, and begins to disappear behind trees. Additionally, this is the south end access point to the small Mount Vernon Yard. This access would only be used by power that has dropped off blocks of cars that need to be dropped from a DC bound train and somehow transferred into the main Baltimore Yard. This would probably only be from one train a day.
Mount Vernon Yard would serve two functions. The first the aforementioned block swapping. The second is as an industrial support yard for the two local areas (the one above the helix mentioned above) and Cockeysville. This would allow for a very small amount of semi-classification work, and will provide a place to base my local jobs out of.
The real Mount Vernon was notably a Transflow terminal location. I may include this off the "Pit Track" I have included there. This is one of those "loose ends".
CP WOOD, would serve as access to the yard from the mains, and would be the end of the Rule 251 ABS signaled double track (251 signaling means each track is automatically signaled in one direction, but not the other, this was a common CR practice in many stretches of double track before the implementation of true bi-directional CTC). 251 Signaling is a pain in the butt to dispatch, but that's its fun. I don't think I'd have any intermediate signals in the short stretch actually included, but simulating it is important to the Conrail flavor of the layout.
CP WOOD is the end of the 251 territory because it is where the inner track becomes bidirectional for trains to and from Bayview, while the outer track is bidirectional to Penn Station and Washington.
The scenery around CP Wood would be older Baltimore mill style buildings, like this area: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qjnvf38mcr4b&scene=44951758&lvl=1&sty=o&where1=Woodberry%2C%20MD
More description coming in part 2
-
I'm going to restate my previously stated statement... Me no likey. You're cowering in fear about poking staging through to the back room, which will cost you two switch plates to cover the holes in the paneling, and going with a convoluted under the deck staging that will cost you two enormous space sapping helixes. This will have a deeply negative impact on the visual appeal of the layout.
You've also incorporated some pointless acrobatics, such as the DC track. This is a waste of space and track. (You DON'T have a lot of space, so every square inch is precious.) Yes, it can provide an operational diversion, but it will look so ********, it will distract from the realism you surely hope to achieve. You want an urban switching area, and the prime location for that is obstructed by the helix. You want to incorporate some stretches of "nothing", but everything is so jammed up due to the presence of TWO helixes, you won't be able to that justice.
If you want to go for the David Barrow Naked Layout for the sake of Raw Operations, it might work. But you're much more visual than that.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/EdSketch.jpg)
Here's the sketch plan I doodled up a couple weeks ago. It puts the staging in the back room, includes Penn Station to handle all your interchange stuff, and a setting of portable modules for the urban switching area, a'la the beer line.
I don't want to submarine discussion of your sketch,... no wait, I do. The helixes are disastrous in terms of wasted space. there's no way around it. My sketch is indeed rough, and has several glaring issues. BUT, I think it merits discussion by the gathered heads here...
Lee
-
Okay, here's the narrative to go with the sketch above...
Basic plan... I know you're hesitant about a double deck, but let this play out...
Lower deck, can be constructed entirely on 30" x 6'8" doors. Very simple game. Upper level on 18-24" doors. Tack a valance on the front edge, add some lighting underneath, and POW.
Okay, the big blob in the middle of the floor... Baltimore industrial district. Think Beer Line. This can be totally portable, functional as a tie in to the layout, or as a stand alone that can travel to shows. Four 2x4 units. Use the beer line track plan (I have the articles if you need them) so you can monkey around with the configurations. The units can be built to store under the layout along the wall.
Helix. Option 1 - a blob near the foot of the steps. A 36" helix will be too wide to put at the foot of the stairs, but a squashed oval like John's might work. You should keep 36" of floor accessible at the foot of the stairs. The object of the game would be to situate the helix so you keep a maximum run on both upper and lower decks. Which leads me to option 2...
Option 2: Put the helix in the closet under the stairs, poke a couple more holes through the stair risers. The main issues here are: You'll have to protect the track along the stairs somehow, and it'll cost you some storage space under the stairs. (Storage space that can be replaced with cabinetry under the benchwork) This gives you a lot more room for "nothing"... and will help with train length sidings on the upper deck.
Track plan: lower deck - focal point - Penn Station and North Ave. yards. tunnel through the wall to reach staging over the workbench in the back room. Lower level run includes B&P Jct., North Ave., Woodberry, Lake Roland (where you can include a foobie interchange with the WM via the Green Spring Branch, or just some awesome scenery with the abandoned line in the background), then on to Lutherville to the helix.
Coming back on the upper deck, you'll have Timonium, with room for 84 lumber and the old Stebbins truss plant, the fair grounds and John Deere, then on to Texas and the quarry. At the corner over North Ave you'll have Cockeysville, with a junction for the Hunt Valley switching area, the York Rd. underpass, and on to north staging in the back room.
MARC stations will work at Penn Station, Lake Roland, Timonium, and Cockeysville, with north staging at Parkton. (you could do some basic scenery on the upper deck staging...) Amtrak locals could stop at Cockeysville, sort of in the New Carrollton mode.
Lower deck would be double track to Lutherville, then single track to Texas, where a long siding will help with traffic in and out of upper staging.
Hopefully that clarifies it a bit.
Lee
-
I gotta admit, I like Lee's rough sketch better. The only thing that concerns me would be compression and distance between "towns". From looking at the room itself, it looks like you can get about 35' of "linear" track going around the walls per deck. What else is in that back room besides the work bench?
Phil
-
The washing machines, a toilet, and a fridge for the beer. If that isn't a perfect staging/dispatcher's office, then I'm off my nut. :D
Lee
-
I hope the washer/dryer are all front loading, that way staging can be run across the top of them, :)
-
I hope the washer/dryer are all front loading, that way staging can be run across the top of them, :)
now there is someone who is thinking clearly!
i don't understand Ed's image - it's cut off on the bottom and i don't know how it relates to the space shown in Lee's sketch. i walk down the stairs and should be hit with something inviting me to explore. it's as much about presentation as it is operations.
-
The washing machines, a toilet, and a fridge for the beer. If that isn't a perfect staging/dispatcher's office, then I'm off my nut. :D
Lee
Hum, now there's an image! ;)
-
i don't understand Ed's image - it's cut off on the bottom and i don't know how it relates to the space shown in Lee's sketch.
Agreed. Placing the plan in the context of the room, as seen in Lee's sketch, would help a great deal.
-
Interesting feedback. I'm going to have to overlay this on the room plan when I get a chance, but I didn't get a chance last night.
One thing to keep in mind, is that while I like the scope of Lee's plan, as he says, there's lot in there that's unrealistic (the 18" radius helix in 2' of space, for example).
For reference though, my drawing orients the same way as the one he posted, but is cut off a bit on the bottom and on the right.
-
No peer pressure here Ed, but I am liking Lee's plan better.
Keeping a clear line of travel between the stairs and the refrigerator is important. I am trying to figure out what would be the Baltimore version of the Beer Line though. Clipper Mill never generated that much traffic even remotely prior to Agnes, from what I've heard. Also, in replace of the helix, perhaps a train-a-vator?
-
Ed, do you think you need that large a radius for the trains you'd be running with the motive power, etc.?
Phil
-
Bryan,
I wasn't thinking of a specific locale, although Boston Street and environs would be a place to start. I was thinking more in terms of some obvious Baltimore urban type industries, some maybe a little anachronistic, but all definitely downtown. Allied Chemical (now Harbor East) the old President Street Freight Station, and a variety of loft-type warehouses around Central Ave., Fells Pt. and Canton would provide the essence of the section, if not a prototypical track plan. Think from roughly Ponca Street over to President Street. Rowhouses, street running, American Can, Belt's Wharf, National Brewing Co. and Gunthers, the Broom Factory, Standard Oil tank farm etc. etc. There's enough over there to condense into a coherent set of switching modules, and enough landmark buildings to let everyone know where you are.
If he were doing 20 years earlier, he could do the Guilford Ave. industrial track, which came off the wye at Union Jct. There was a small yard in front of the State Pen, then a track to the east that went to the WM's Hillen, and street trackage that served some warehouses, the old Calvert St. Freight Station (now the fitness club) and on down to tie into Pratt Street around the News American Building (now a parking lot...) 40 years earlier and that scene would also net the nifty Guilford Ave. elevated on the BTC.
But I digress. And his basement isn't that big... ;D
Lee
-
Ed, do you think you need that large a radius for the trains you'd be running with the motive power, etc.?
Phil
Yeah. I gotta be able to run TV trains and 86' boxes or else it just isn't mainline Conrail to me.
-
I meant in the helix where visiblity isn't an issue. I was thinking an elongated helix with a smaller inside radius with a foot or so of straights between curves on the left side to give you an easier grade, but not take up as much space width wise. You should definitely double track the helix as when I had helices in my plan on XtrckCad and ran some trains on it, at 30/40 scale mph, it would take 2 1/2 minutes to traverse at 6/7 lap helix and that could become the choke point of the line,
Phil
-
So lets think about something else. Lee's mention of the industrial stuff seems interesting, so let's go down that route...
In the current plan I had actually not planned on being TOO heavily focused on industrial switching (I know, this seems strange for me). I wanted to try and capture Mainline Conrail stuff that I simply wasn't able to do on the door. I was wanting somewhere to give my SD40-2 fleet (ha!) a run. If I do something more industrial in the area, I think I could end up using the space in a much more fulfilling (maybe) way. The problem with that though, is that I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that.
-
I meant in the helix where visiblity isn't an issue. I was thinking an elongated helix with a smaller inside radius with a foot or so of straights between curves on the left side to give you an easier grade, but not take up as much space width wise. You should definitely double track the helix as when I had helices in my plan on XtrckCad and ran some trains on it, at 30/40 scale mph, it would take 2 1/2 minutes to traverse at 6/7 lap helix and that could become the choke point of the line,
Phil
That choke-point thing is a real PIA. The good news is that it'd be "off line", so trains could be lined up in the helix previous to being "on scene". (ie, we know BAEN-15 follows AMTK 20, so stage the amtrak train and the freight in the helix already, then just move em up to "appear". this means I'd need a second track though.)
I do think the wider radii are still important in hidden places though, because of the operational characteristics of the stuff I want to run. I'm happy to change my mind though given some experiential data of bigger cars on smaller curves.
-
Ed sed: "I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that."
...other than the industrial area would keep the "system" fed. In addition to the traffic modeling, you have to factor in entertainment/play value. On the one hand, you want to represent a busy main line with lots of through traffic, and a semi busy terminal to deal with some of that. That's fine. Big staging, trains show up, glide around, and disappear.
My layout can do that, too, with the added interest of the division point operations, with set outs, power swaps, and the like.
But it's the industrial switching stuff that's the meat and potatoes. What's the point of setting out a cut of cars in the yard, if they're aren't going anywhere? Likewise, isn't it more fun to drag a load from a loading dock run it down to the outbound interchange track, and really feel like it's going somewhere? I know you plan to include some switching, and there are plenty of opportunities to do that in the concept. But you also pine for the brick canyons of south Philly... and the modular switching district is your opportunity to scratch that itch, and even use it as a traveling display...
Consider also that your space really is confined. Even with a second deck, through trains will make the circuit pretty quickly. Other than getting hung up in the helix for a few minutes, or having to pause at CP Nowhere to wait for a meet, you may be overestimating the value of that thru traffic. I know I did.
Just a thought (or 8)
Lee
-
Thru traffic is an essential element to what I want in my model railroad. Of course I model a double tracked main with heavy traffic. But to me, skipping it would be like leaving out other essential things, like mountains. ;D
Of course we all deal with constraints eh?
Seems the track plan posted though doesn't have much in terms of stuff for the local to do (while that thru freight rolls by!)
I don't have any real suggestions though (I'm watching with interest though).
Mark
-
Ed sed: "I really like the feeling of it it being "part of a system", doing things like traffic modeling, etc... and a branchline doesn't do that."
...other than the industrial area would keep the "system" fed. In addition to the traffic modeling, you have to factor in entertainment/play value. On the one hand, you want to represent a busy main line with lots of through traffic, and a semi busy terminal to deal with some of that. That's fine. Big staging, trains show up, glide around, and disappear.
My layout can do that, too, with the added interest of the division point operations, with set outs, power swaps, and the like.
But it's the industrial switching stuff that's the meat and potatoes. What's the point of setting out a cut of cars in the yard, if they're aren't going anywhere? Likewise, isn't it more fun to drag a load from a loading dock run it down to the outbound interchange track, and really feel like it's going somewhere? I know you plan to include some switching, and there are plenty of opportunities to do that in the concept. But you also pine for the brick canyons of south Philly... and the modular switching district is your opportunity to scratch that itch, and even use it as a traveling display...
Consider also that your space really is confined. Even with a second deck, through trains will make the circuit pretty quickly. Other than getting hung up in the helix for a few minutes, or having to pause at CP Nowhere to wait for a meet, you may be overestimating the value of that thru traffic. I know I did.
Just a thought (or 8)
Lee
I lean on Lee's suggestion heavily I think there should be a little more selective compression within the space. Instead of modeling the places, I'd go more along the lines of selecting the industries along the NCR, then pick a selection to model and allow that to dictate the modeled location. I kinda feel like your plan is trying to accomplish too much in too little of a space, while Lee's plan is a little more spaced out. I'd actually flip Lee's plan, so Penn station is along the bottom wall, and move the switching district jutting out from the righthand wall. With it in the location Lee has on his diagram it feels slightly claustrophobic or "hallway" versus walking into a trainroom or layout. I'd also have the a doubletrack go around the left wall and through the stairs to a hidden helix. One helix allowing two directions. This would also allow for an extended run if possible, Philly or York would end up underneath Penn Station.
Thats just my .02 (canadien)
The S.
-
The difficulty with putting Penn Station on the bottom wall, is the other side is good old Baltimore County clay. Hard to build staging there... The tunnels at each end of Penn Station give a great natural entry/exit for off layout trains. The only real foobie is the wye at B&P to allow southbound NCR trains into B&P Tunnel, and the industrial area is coming off of Guilford Ave, instead of Bayview, which would be more kosher geographically.
Of course, after walking into the Surround Sound equivalent of Model Railroading that is Howard Zane's, I'm inclined to agree with Steve and Sizemore that there needs to be a powerful visual component to just walking into the room. Either way, the giant helix cassons that Ed proposes don't work.
Lee
-
Ah, I think I forgot to mention that helix situation there.
That helix would actually be pretty decently hidden. The area at the bottom of the stairs would be the Cockeysville Industrial Track switching area. The helix hides where the peninsula hits the wall.
The scene that people would see when they enter would be McCormicks (or whatever I put in there) and the Cockeysville station area on the left.
-
Include the York Road underpass, and I'll gradually begin to warm to the idea.
Lee
-
Ed, you're thinking of the helix down/up for staging, I'm thinking of it as the climb between decks 1 and 2 with staging off in the other room, unless you are going to stage trains for the start of an ops session out on the line.
Also, I've been thinking about your ops and how it relates to the train list document you shared with me. You have a lot of unit trains, both empty and full, as well as 1/2 TV and 5/6 passenger trains in each direction. What I don't quite understand is how you see your yard being handled. With Bayview so close, I'm wondering how much traffic really would drop there and wouldn't just continue on to Bayview and then a local(s) would operate from there back up the NCR. Or are you thinking more along the lines of the operating scheme like how Abrams was operated at times?
Phil
-
Since my cup o' tea is sleepy southern branchline railroading, I can't offer much on the traffic side, but what I am thinking is that all that through traffic wouldn't be so fun when you are operating by yourself. For that you would probably want to go with more switching and locals.
-
Well, with about a dozen replies arriving since I opened up CorelDraw until I exported an image, I may be a little late to the party. But I'd like to suggest that folks take a step back and think about the functional space to work in, before getting into the nitty-gritty of what stations and industries go where.
Clearly there are two features that cannot go away, given a two-level layout: a helix, and a return loop. These are the 800-pound gorillas that need to be worked into the space. My suggestion is to place the helix where few people seem to want to put it: right smack dab in the middle of the room. The natural inclination of putting it under the stairs I think creates more work than is necessary; it means running tracks between the steps, and it's a difficult space to work in or access.
In the middle of the room, it has excellent access and would be much easier to build. Also, the top of the helix need not be a no-man's land; it could be completely filled with, say, an urban industrial switching area. I then placed the return loop in the only other viable location, while leaving the floor space at the bottom of the steps clear for people to pass one another (although a narrow shelf extension could go there to hold small a industry or two, if desired). Note, too, the loops are nearly 48 inches in diameter, which should provide a healthy radius for any rolling stock types.
If placing the staging yard(s) in the other room is an option, then there should be adequate space for lots of points of interest along the lines between the two loops. If connections to portable modules are desired, I'd recommend they be placed in the other room so as to not disturb the integrity of the main layout when the modules are at shows.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/ed_sketch.jpg)
-
I don't know if you need 2 helices/turnbacks unless Ed has a given of continuous running. Ed, do you have a list of givens/druthers, must haves/nice to haves, etc.?
Phil
-
Of course, after walking into the Surround Sound equivalent of Model Railroading that is Howard Zane's, I'm inclined to agree with Steve and Sizemore that there needs to be a powerful visual component to just walking into the room.
Lee
i have been lurking on this post and find it compelling and interesting to watch the ideas flow. i agree with Lee's "powerful visual component" comment, it has merit. I think now is a GREAT time to consider the aesthetic designs upon entrance to the room (not just the sight lines of different sections of the layout).
That being said, you CAN do a lot with a little space if you limit the entrance to the room (or at least the visual lines) to bring focus to a particular area.
at my place, you walk down the stairs into a big room... with a shelf layout. not very appealing when it comes to a wow factor (even as the scenery approaches something "finished"). In this particular case (visual component upon entrance) i think size does not matter, it is more about controlling the sight lines.
Walking down stairs into an open basement doesn't force the eye to gravitate. Walking down a set of stairs with a door at the bottom, building anticipation and then entering into a room that has been designed well or throws you right into a duck under and saturates you with trains is a good example of "wow factors".
of course, you don't need a basement to pull this off, even a small side room could be controlled.
sorry to detour the thread (now back to your regularly scheduled ranting). keep up the good ideas. i would be interested in your "wow" factor ideas.
EP
-
In both Lee's and David's interpretations I see a troublesome room access pinch point between the bottom helix and the steps. I would suggest moving the helix barrel about a foot to the right and add an industry opportunity on a narrow shelf over to the left wall.
-
what is the door at the lower right? what is the door at the upper left? what is that utility space?
-
I don't know if you need 2 helices/turnbacks unless Ed has a given of continuous running. Ed, do you have a list of givens/druthers, must haves/nice to haves, etc.?
If the return loop is unnecessary, then I would move the helix out even further into the middle of the space. But I have a feeling a return loop is likely desired.
In both Lee's and David's interpretations I see a troublesome room access pinch point between the bottom helix and the steps. I would suggest moving the helix barrel about a foot to the right and add an industry opportunity on a narrow shelf over to the left wall.
This might be a bad spot if it required a lot of traffic moving back and forth, but it's really not in the main operating space, so I don't see it as being a problem during operations. It's also why I didn't push the shelf all the way to the left wall, in order to create some wiggle room for folks entering or leaving the railroad space at the bottom of the stairs.
Also, it's not a helix, just a return loop. It could be made smaller/shifted right if necessary, I suppose.
-
Both the entrance access and utility closet are my concerns with the room itself. Whatever goes in front of that utility closet needs to "removable" in the off chance the utility company needs to change out whatever is in there or perform maintenance,
Phil
-
The door at the lower right is actually a window well high on the wall, with a floor to ceiling enclosure next to it that houses gas meters and that sort of stuff. It'll take some bones, but you can have the meters moved outdoors to solve that problem. The only thing you'd need to worry about is access to the feed valve for your front hose bib that's probably in there. (to shut it off so it doesn't freeze).
The door at the upper part of the diagram is the entrance to the back room and laundry and beer fridge.
David's diagram more clearly points up the space limitations of the room, but also offers the better potential for the WOW described by Eric.
I continue to contend that removing the staging function to the back room is the best solution, and use the helix blobs to allow for an upper deck for extended runs and more ops opportunities.
But the York Rd. underpass scene at the foot of the steps does offer a possible WOW if done comprehensively....
Lee
-
Walking down stairs into an open basement doesn't force the eye to gravitate. Walking down a set of stairs with a door at the bottom, building anticipation and then entering into a room that has been designed well or throws you right into a duck under and saturates you with trains is a good example of "wow factors".
Wow factors are nice and all, but are they practical? Think in terms of construction; some of these ideas are great on paper, but a PITA to build--especially to build in such a way that they don't get damaged. Enclosing the stairs with a wall and door subdivides the space and makes the total available modeling area even smaller, whereas left open you have an immediate vista of the whole layout from the bottom of the stairs. Also think in terms of practical stuff, like being able to carry materials and large objects in and out of the room. I love the marketing-speak of "saturating one's senses with trains," but I think it may be much harder to pull off than describe.
I think it would be just as effective to make sure the entire space was finished, and finished well. Clean, smooth lines, nicely-finished fascias, lighting valances to focus the light on the trains, etc. Also, some strategically-placed visually-dramatic model locations would go a long way to add wow as well.
-
I'm thinking of the latter, open vista effect when I'm thinking wow. The eye can be drawn to a particular scene outright, but all of the other flavors are present peripherally.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_gRky15KRXaw/S0pgblWUXxI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/Run5Xjuuc4Q/s640/DSC09519.JPG)
Nothing to duck under, nothing that's right up in your face, but WOW.
;)
-
I'm thinking of the latter, open vista effect when I'm thinking wow. The eye can be drawn to a particular scene outright, but all of the other flavors are present peripherally.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_gRky15KRXaw/S0pgblWUXxI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/Run5Xjuuc4Q/s640/DSC09519.JPG)
Nothing to duck under, nothing that's right up in your face, but WOW.
;)
I agree. The only thing I would have done to that space is use more compact lighting fixtures, and hide them behind a valance, in order to avoid the visual clutter the spots create. Other than that, yeah, wow.
-
Nothing to duck under, nothing that's right up in your face, but WOW.
;)
too bad it's not a model railroad. ;)
that will not be Ed's basement - no bacon.
-
Wow! Look at all those light fixtures!
-
Wow! Look at all those light fixtures!
Must get a little toasty down there after a while, especially when you add a dozen visitors or so.
-
Wow! Look at all those light fixtures!
Must get a little toasty down there after a while, especially when you add a dozen visitors or so.
Doesnt need to tan in winter either.... ;D
The S.
-
Here's a very rough pass at where mainlines might be run within the space I'd sketched out. Roughing them in this way can suggest where major features, such as yards, facilities, and switching areas might naturally go. It's just a starting point for further discussion, and there are many options, of course. The return loop for instance could be another helix to avoid trains lapping themselves. Two helixes would make for a really nice long run. The line doesn't have to pass into the other room, if it's not desired/permitted. Not sure if that stretch along the wall there is long enough for a staging yard, anyway.
(http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/images/ed_sketch_2.jpg)
-
Wow factors are nice and all, but are they practical? Think in terms of construction; some of these ideas are great on paper, but a PITA to build--especially to build in such a way that they don't get damaged.
having not been to Ed's, i was assuming the townhome stairs were enclosed and construction not an issue. I agree, an open staircase makes materials easier, unless there is an external door.
Enclosing the stairs with a wall and door subdivides the space and makes the total available modeling area even smaller
Agree when speaking of a small area increasing the number of walls is not a good idea, in that case, the layout will likely lend itself to scene breaks and the like.
I love the marketing-speak of "saturating one's senses with trains," but I think it may be much harder to pull off than describe. I think it would be just as effective to make sure the entire space was finished, and finished well. Clean, smooth lines, nicely-finished fascias, lighting valances to focus the light on the trains, etc. Also, some strategically-placed visually-dramatic model locations would go a long way to add wow as well.
good scenery goes a long way, i myself have travelled from Plywood Plains to whatever stage of quasi-complete i am at. Regardless of size, good scenery always helps. Look at the incredible stuff you , Vollmer, Ed, Lee, etc achieve. but even a small room can be manipulated with visual blocks (mountains, large industry, etc.). My thoughts on wow factors were more leaning to a larger space, with Ed's being in the lower end in terms of size.
I can imagine going into his basement (or up to lee's penthouse) and walking into a "trainroom"... not a room with trains in it. but i don't want focus on that point. To each his own. This is a "No Flame" zone.
What i would be interested in hearing, in addition to the design elements of the RR, are the visual aspects as well. How Ed will (potentially) bring the "visitor experience" into account as he designs his space (assuming Ed even cares about the visitor experience... heck.. he just may wanna run trains and operate ;)). that is somewhere where i myself am lacking and could potentially gleen ideas.
when i think entrance to a train room, i think this
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TsGgnE7k08cnTpFSgWrSeQ?feat=directlink
even though the scenery is overwhellming, it makes an impression that is memorable as you walk down the stairs and into the empire. Of course, for most modelers to achieve anything close in terms of size would be impossible, however in a smaller, more realistic setting (say a townhome or side room) theoretically (given enough time to continuosly improve it) it could be achieved. Look at what the modular guys do in HO, as Dave says, good scenery would compensate for alot.
Ep
p.s i took money out of the equation as a requirment. Lets assume we can model on a shoestring effeciently ;D
-
If you compare the shot that I posted with Eric's, I think you get an idea of how you might want to approach that introductory visual. Mine shows the comprehensive Wow, in terms of all the things that David mentions (with the exception of the light fixtures... but to be honest, when I was in the room, I didn't even notice them. The layout grabs far more attention than the hardware that supports the show) while Eric's shot focuses on a particular WOW scenic element.
One of the motivators behind my idea of putting the modular beer-line style industrial area in the foreground was in line with both. While not the first thing you see, it has the potential to be a visual high water mark that sets the tone of the layout's quality, and clearly denotes the nerve center of the railroad modeled.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Structure_Cover.jpg)
I tried to achieve that with the location of my paper mill and Maryland Junction right by the entrance to the room. The goal is to provide an immediate glimpse into what this layout is about, as well as to divert the viewer's attention away from all the crap on the floor! :-[
Lee
-
as well as to divert the viewer's attention away from all the crap on the floor! :-[
Lee
never noticed the crap... thats what they make curtains for... to hide the crap.
EP
-
The bottom line, however, is that, once a visitor makes it past the "wow" (whatever that may constitute) upon their entrance to the layout space, presumably the next stage is really the meat and potatoes, the raison d'être of the layout: operation. So I do think that it's perhaps more valuable to focus on that aspect, and worry about presentation down the line.
-
The bottom line, however, is that, once a visitor makes it past the "wow" (whatever that may constitute) upon their entrance to the layout space, presumably the next stage is really the meat and potatoes, the raison d'être of the layout: operation. So I do think that it's perhaps more valuable to focus on that aspect, and worry about presentation down the line.
David,
I think Lee is actually trying to show how you can do both. One of the very clear things from his entrance scene - aside from the level of detail and craftsmanship - is that this IS a WORKING railroad.
(http://www.wmrywesternlines.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Structure_Cover.jpg)
There at least three industrial activities going on here, and with the through freight ambling by, its clear that these industries need the railroad to survive. They weren't and after thought, and they aren't just there for scenic effect. Se Lee has WOW and raison d'être. Based on Ed's various postings so far, I think it's emminently reasonable for him to try to achieve both (and I am with Lee that neither will work well if there's a huge horken helix).
-
The bottom line, however, is that, once a visitor makes it past the "wow" (whatever that may constitute) upon their entrance to the layout space, presumably the next stage is really the meat and potatoes, the raison d'être of the layout: operation. So I do think that it's perhaps more valuable to focus on that aspect, and worry about presentation down the line.
David,
I think Lee is actually trying to show how you can do both. One of the very clear things from his entrance scene - aside from the level of detail and craftsmanship - is that this IS a WORKING railroad.
There at least three industrial activities going on here, and with the through freight ambling by, its clear that these industries need the railroad to survive. They weren't and after thought, and they aren't just there for scenic effect. Se Lee has WOW and raison d'être. Based on Ed's various postings so far, I think it's emminently reasonable for him to try to achieve both (and I am with Lee that neither will work well if there's a huge horken helix).
I'm not arguing that one can't have both; I'm simply cautioning about using "wow" motives to guide the development of the layout at the possible expense of its operation. I also think that one can successfully work around "huge horkin helixes." Ed does not have an especially small space--indeed, it's a nice size. The sketches I made have 4-foot-diameter loops--I think that demonstrates a layout can be built around one or even two of them with plenty of room left over for wow-stuff.
I just think the horse needs to remain in front of the cart. Develop a basic plan that meets the owner's needs, and fits the space workably. Then delve into the things that will make it visually exciting.
-
And that's actually where Howard's layout uses quantity to mask quality... at least in terms of ops. His layout is truly a feast for the eyes, something we can all learn from, but operationally, it's not a "railroad" per se. It's a big train set that loops around through wonderful scenes. Which okay, because that's what he wants it to be.
So, yes, consider the wow, but it does have to function as the working railroad you want to portray. This is one of the reasons that if it were my basement, Baltimore and the big city scene would be right at the foot of the steps. The available space is too narrow to really do much operationally, but it would be outstanding for that first punch in the eye. Then you leave Baltimore, go up the valley, build out a switching district along the partition wall, run the main through to the back to a hidden helix, back into the room on an upper deck, then Cockeysville, and the rest of the upper deck is beautiful scenery to York County.
Just sayin' North doesn't always have to be at the top of the map.
Lee
-
dave,
i was thinking that the operational aspect (as functional and "good") were a "given" based on Ed's experience and the feedback from design discussions here that i have always found helpful. i am more of a "roundy round" guy, however i agree with Lee, as he pointed out, we can have both a good operating layout that has a bit of wow factor on initial impression, regardless of room size.
If the wow factor is valued (to each his own) and integrated to some level (as you say, "not the driving factor") in layout design (in the early conversations) then it may enhance the operational and aestetics of the experience.
As i said, i am only speaking from my personal experience (opinion), which is limited. Just chiming in is all.
knowing the space Ed has to deal with, i think he could do a lot. the "punch in the eye" as Lee call's it.
In fact, it has me thinking about my own basement and how should I "give a punch in the eye" to a visitor.
As always, i find the posts inspiring.
EP
-
I feel bad for not weighing in earlier yesterday. Every time I went to post someone else would add something else really good, and I didn't want to stop the flow.
I am really amazed by the thought you guys have put into this, and I really appreciate it.
I've heard lots of reasons for alternate plans, but I haven't seen a list of why the one I've drawn won't work.
Yes, it's rather simple, but that's the idea. I don't want it to be insane and a 10 year project. Not on this go-around anyway.
-
I've heard lots of reasons for alternate plans, but I haven't seen a list of why the one I've drawn won't work.
It lacks imagination. You need to really think about how the scenery will flow and how you will fool the eye into thinking there's more railroad than you actually have room for. So far, it amounts to a track chart based on about a quarter mile.
On that level it works. But as a setting for a believable railroad that moves a variety of traffic from point A to point B, it's missing a lot of flavors. Accept that your 100 car trains will actually be 25 car trains, and you can start painting a more complete picture.
Lee
-
go around the room .. nolix fashion
-
I think Lee is right. It's difficult to come up with a bullet-point list of issues, when really it's a gut-feeling thing. If it does the job for you, then fine. But I have the sense that it somehow comes up a little short, whereas Lee's initial sketch was way OTT, IMO. I think somewhere in between is what might do the trick.
It's hard for me to get into the nuts and bolts of it since ops is my weak suit, but perhaps it might help to build a (new) list of desired features. You may have done this already, but I don't get the sense it was consolidated into one definitive list. Then perhaps something will start to coalesce out of the list. You've got a great space (I am highly envious), and I think it can be put to greater advantage.
-
To follow up on David's comment, here's the list of what I look for in my designs.
1. A place for trains to come from. (staging)
2. A place where trains are sorted and assembled (a yard, or maybe just an interchange where pickups/setouts are made)
3. A switching area to give the line some play value, and the modeled railroad a purpose.
4. A continuous operating loop because sometimes I just get lazy, or need to break in a locomotive, or I want to have a train rolling in the back ground while I'm fooling around in the yard or on a local.
5. A junction with a branch line (see interchange and switching area above)
6. An engine terminal (maybe just a one stall house to keep a switcher in... maybe a 20 stall roundhouse. I hate having to put away my toys.)
7. A place for the trains to go (more staging).
That covers the track and ops portion of the program.
I also demand from myself coherent scenery, detailed scenes, realistic landscapes (no 60' high vertical retaining walls, etc.) and well thought-out view blocks to isolate specific scenes. This helps provide the illusion of longer trains, bigger mountains, more distance between destinations etc, and also helps to mask staging entrances, continuous loop cutoffs, and other model railroad necessities.
I would apply these same principles to a Western Maryland layout based in Baltimore, York, or Cumberland. Or a Conrail layout based in Lewistown, Winchester, or Seaford, DE.
The other thing that's tricky for us proto ops types is to design for our space first, and our desired ops second. You have to come to terms with the compromises required by the space you have available, or you'll drive yourself crazy.
On mine, there are numerous compromises, starting with pushing Maryland Jct. west to the middle of Luke, and making traffic from the east and the west use the same staging yard. The simple truth is that you have to bend a lot of light to make a layout that looks, runs, and "feels" the way you want it to. David's right, my sketch is way over the top, but I usually start with too much so I can peel it back to what actually works. Yours is just the opposite, so spartan that you almost want to give up because you see right away that you can't have mile long sidings and full scale yards and industries.
But don't be discouraged! You have a space! You have some defined parameters. It took me a good 3-4 years of design exercises when I finally got a room to get to the point where I could confidently start building.
Start with your main line run, make sure it fits in your room, then get out the track charts and ZTS drawings and see what will fit where.
Lee
-
I don't want it to be insane and a 10 year project. Not on this go-around anyway.
lesson learned... build modularly and you can incorporate it into your next space (unless you want to change scales build a different theme, which is possible, we all change our minds (like Bernie did)).
i think the project WILL be insane and it CAN be a long term evolution... build it up "nice and good", and re-use it modularly when you need to move. imagine the NEXT space you might get and all the recycled use you can get out of this effort.
even though you say it is "small and simple" it is larger than a door layout and not something you could "give" to a fellow member, but you could surely re-use certain showpiece elements again and again over time.
You don't strike me as the type of person to rip it out and start over (i myself am that way), so you could probably get away with building it up in a simple (and sceniced) fashion and then when you move you can take care and move it with you.
just my 2 cents.
EP
p.s. i call dibs if you rip it out! ;)
-
Ed,
I think what we all saw was a very simple line with not much in the way of "ops". Essentially it had a small yard, one branch, not a lot of industries/switching potentional (at least defined on the plan), a very compressed line, and what really does look like a convoluted "wye" in the top right of the plan. You are wanting to get something up quickly but how long do you plan on being in the townhouse? If it is less than say 10 years, how much scenic elements do you think you could realistically get to in that time frame? Finally, how "modular" do you want the layout to be for if/when you move to a larger residence and try to claim the whole basement?
Phil
-
Finally, how "modular" do you want the layout to be for if/when you move to a larger residence and try to claim the whole basement?
Phil
Phil makes an excellent point, as does Eric. That was one of the reasons I laid out my sketch as a series of door panels. While not truly modular, in addition to a speedy and sturdy start, it would give you the opportunity to salvage parts of the work that can be incorporated into a future plan.
Lee
-
i think defining the flow of the layout and how the main will fit the space is important right now. have a list of wants and try to see how they work with the placement of the main. adjust the flow of the main as needed, but be ready to cross off things you list. the Rochelle Sub UP line comes to mind when i see your space Ed. i think you could do well to see how he did things: http://home.comcast.net/~dpkruse/index_files/image846.jpg - sure he has more room, but the approach to staging and the flow of the main might help you see a layout in your space.
-
I think 2 helix is overkill. Do you plan on queuing up trains in the corkscrew? If not, why not sake space on the Timonium end with an elevator?
-
It lacks imagination. You need to really think about how the scenery will flow and how you will fool the eye into thinking there's more railroad than you actually have room for. So far, it amounts to a track chart based on about a quarter mile.
Lee
You took the words out of my mouth Lee...
That's exactly what it looks like– A track chart.
Ed, you have a flair for dirty, grubby, warehousy/urban scenery but it doesn't look like any of that is incorporated into the plan.
As far as Lee's 7 points go, I totally agree:
1. A place for trains to come from. (staging)
2. A place where trains are sorted and assembled (a yard, or maybe just an interchange where pickups/setouts are made)
3. A switching area to give the line some play value, and the modeled railroad a purpose.
4. A continuous operating loop because sometimes I just get lazy, or need to break in a locomotive, or I want to have a train rolling in the back ground while I'm fooling around in the yard or on a local.
5. A junction with a branch line (see interchange and switching area above)
6. An engine terminal (maybe just a one stall house to keep a switcher in... maybe a 20 stall roundhouse. I hate having to put away my toys.)
7. A place for the trains to go (more staging).
I have each and every one of those in my layout.
I incorporated all of them (and it really wasn't that hard) in order to create a layout that was versatile. If I got sick of seeing through-freights race back & forth between staging areas, I have ample switching to keep locals busy– including interchange traffic.
I see a lot of the "race-track" layouts that feature through-freights and not much else... They strike me as kinda boring.
-
I see a lot of the "race-track" layouts that feature through-freights and not much else... They strike me as kinda boring.
[/quote]
Like modern day modelers with the COFC trains. All the money spent for the well cars and boxes. End up being background.
-
I think this thread is becoming quite useful in general terms. I recommend making it sticky for a while.
-
Ewwww... :-X
-
Finally, how "modular" do you want the layout to be for if/when you move to a larger residence and try to claim the whole basement?
Phil makes an excellent point, as does Eric. That was one of the reasons I laid out my sketch as a series of door panels. While not truly modular, in addition to a speedy and sturdy start, it would give you the opportunity to salvage parts of the work that can be incorporated into a future plan.
Keep in mind, if it won't fit up the stairs and through doorways and such to get out of the house, then it ain't portable.
I've painted myself into that corner before, although it wasn't entirely my fault. I once built a copy of the HO scale MR project layout, the Seaboard Central (the one that was attached to the Kitty Hawk Central) in my parents' unfinished basement. There was no problem with the size of this layout initially, perhaps 5' x 9', but my parents later finished off a portion of their basement, leaving the layout hopelessly landlocked. There was no longer any way to get down a previously non-existing hallway and make a now-required 180-degree turn up the stairs. It had to be torn down when I moved out. Oh well... I'm in N scale now!
Dave
-
Finally, how "modular" do you want the layout to be for if/when you move to a larger residence and try to claim the whole basement?
Phil makes an excellent point, as does Eric. That was one of the reasons I laid out my sketch as a series of door panels. While not truly modular, in addition to a speedy and sturdy start, it would give you the opportunity to salvage parts of the work that can be incorporated into a future plan.
Keep in mind, if it won't fit up the stairs and through doorways and such to get out of the house, then it ain't portable.
My last N scale layout, the White River and Northern, was designed to be broken down and moved. But when it came time to break it down, I discovered to my dismay that I had grossly miscalculated things. The two parts could have made it through the door--if they could have been turned within the room. That's where they met their doom.
But considering where I moved next, it didn't matter. So my only recommendation is to play out both scenarios in your mind, and see which is more realistic.
-
Like modern day modelers with the COFC trains. All the money spent for the well cars and boxes. End up being background.
Bingo!
And bless the folks that like that sort of thing. Hey more power to them.
But you're right. They end up being an extension of the scenery. They're part of the railroad but not really, because you (as the railroad operator) really aren't interacting with them. Yeah, you start them and stop them, but they are pretty much left on their own other than that.
Hey, I've got 4 through-freights on my layout that do nothing more than criss-cross the layout in order to make the this section of RR look less like an abandonment candidate. :)
But, it's the 7 locals that make the layout fun to operate.
Incorporating even a short branchline into a layout is a huge + in the operations column.
-
Michael, you're hitting on the exact reason I want to do the junction and the single track / 251 signaling thing.
This way the unit trains still have something to do... fight with each other!
-
Michael, you're hitting on the exact reason I want to do the junction and the single track / 251 signaling thing.
This way the unit trains still have something to do... fight with each other!
exactly....
a few trains running to keep that part of the hobby fun... and a few places (or more) to switch and operate...
striking a good balance seems to be YOUR best solution for what you are looking to achieve (i realize i am stating the obvoious here, sorry).
i think the thing that surprises me is that you have always struck me as "operations ed" or "throw ed in the yard to build trains"... and to see you embracing a "little" of the roundy round mentality shows a balance between operating and running... and i dont know why.. but i think that is cool. then again, i shouldnt be surprised, i have seen you "roundy round" on bantrak set ups before... anyway...
keep it fun (please) ;)
EP
-
I once built a copy of the HO scale MR project layout, the Seaboard Central
a few years ago i was considering building this in N scale - it would be an interesting layout the yard could be expanded. the yard and branch are very interesting scenes - love the trailing point switch to get to the mill. take heed Ed, you can unwrap the plan and use elements on your NCR.
-
the "background" trains are an interesting aspect that i have been exploring with some layout automation tools. the concept is to have a train that goes from staging, makes a few laps, and returns to staging. while this is happening, i'm blocking cars in the yard or running out the branch to the zinc mine.
simply making a few laps requires no effort, just set the throttle and keep an eye out for derails. but the automation part i want to explore involves setting up meets with other "ghost" trains. if i have 2 main line trains taking a lap in opposite directions, i can setup meets without breaking stride from my switching duties. basically the computer takes over the main for the running of these two trains. it aligns the turnouts, puts a train into the siding, and then holds for the other train.
if Ed plans his layout around a mainline that is setup for meets, than he could enlist some automation to handle the "Big Blue" railroading he likes to see while he dabbles with the switching he likes to do. my layout has one passing siding that is dispatcher controlled, it would be great to get three so you could watch the tumble down and see the "dispatcher" at work.
3 big sidings Ed, 3 of them. and have one with a train that never moves. that's the Conrail I remember ;)
-
Michael, you're hitting on the exact reason I want to do the junction and the single track / 251 signaling thing.
This way the unit trains still have something to do... fight with each other!
I think the junction is a cool idea. It will ad some spice to the operations.
But if someone mentioned your name and asked me what things impressed me about your modeling, two things would come to mind:
1. That late-late winter scenery that you've mastered.
2. Your terrific grasp of the urban decay thing– with the run-down warehouses and tight switching area.
I'm just not seeing point #2 on this layout.
But it comes down, as always, to what you want. :)
-
Wow, I'm actually kinda flattered that I leave any sort of impression :-)
It's funny, I feel like part of my desire with this is to grow a little bit from those two things. Obviously I'll want to keep the same skills at work (ie, the whole thing will still be winter), but I want to take those skills and apply them to something a little more complex (ie, not just a snapshot of a branch).
On the shown plan I still plan to have a good bit of that stuff, most of it just isn't illustrated.