Author Topic: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas  (Read 7451 times)

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robert3985

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2014, 07:36:52 PM »
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I have another solution that's been good for me weighting brass steam engines.  It involves the use of a bismuth alloy that melts at a low temperature (app 158 deg. F), damming the holes in an N-scale boiler with my molding clay (not modeling clay, although that would probably work), then pouring in the molten metal, letting it cool, then drilling holes for wires and grinding away what is interfering with the motor and chassis.  I built clay "blanks" that I attached to the boilers before I poured in the metal which intruded into the molten metal and minimized the amount of grinding I had to do.

I haven't tried this with plastic engines yet, but the 158 degree F melting temp should be cool enough so that it doesn't melt or deform the plastic casting.

For N-scale plastic locomotives that have metal chassis with integrated weights such as Athearn Big Boys/Challengers and Kato GS's with only a little room between the rounded chassis and the plastic boiler inside surface, sheet lead would be ideal.

However, for larger volumes, such as in smoke boxes, or on models (like most brass models) that have a lot of open space surrounding an open frame motor and fabricated chassis, damming and pouring the bismuth alloy works very well for me.

Here's a comparo.  A pure stock Key FEF-3 (no tender) weighs in at 132.1 grams.  The same engine after damming and pouring in the low-melt metal weighs 206.5 grams.  With no traction tires, weighted engines will pull over 60 freight cars on level track with no apparent slippage.  Not too shabby for a 4-8-4 and more than sufficient for my 9', 7.5" maximum length trains on my layout (30 40' freight cars).

Installing DCC will cut the weight down if the decoder is in the engine, so I put my sound decoders in the tenders along with the speakers and enclosures.

Works for me.

You can get the metal in various amounts. On eBay, it's called either Cerrobend or Wood's Metal and can be had for around 20 bucks a pound.  At Micro Mark, it's being sold as "Type 160 Low Melt Metal" and goes for $16.45 for an 8 oz nugget.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 07:43:04 PM by robert3985 »

Chris333

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2014, 08:15:14 PM »
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I have a foot long bar of Bismuth, but lead is heavier. Just saying.

glakedylan

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 08:25:02 PM »
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thanks, mmagliaro, much appreciated...

yes, I currently have 3 orders in with the motor man for 3 minitrix k4s
and I have a couple of 2-10-0s
the challenge will be the model power and Bachmann units that have a fast high end speed
and leave a little to be desired at slow speed

the information is not too much, and I am grateful for what you shared
I figured that would be the reality
I did more things in HO Scale than I have attempted thus far in N Scale

the information is good to have

thanks again!
Gary
PRRT&HS #9304 | PHILLY CHAPTER #2384

Cajonpassfan

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 12:12:36 AM »
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I have a foot long bar of Bismuth, but lead is heavier. Just saying.

9.78 g/cm2 easily meltable Bm vs. 11.34 for lead, assuming you can actually get pure lead...
Just saying.... 8)
Otto K.

Cajonpassfan

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 12:13:45 AM »
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That would be cm3...

robert3985

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 12:19:32 AM »
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I have a foot long bar of Bismuth, but lead is heavier. Just saying.

So, what's your point?  You can't melt lead and pour it into a plastic shell, a process which gives you more Cerrobend in a plastic shell than you'll ever get using lead since after Cerrobend cools, it doesn't shrink, so it's going to stay put and there is virtually zero space between it and the shell...as opposed to a lot of air in any lead installation.

Cerrobend is approximately 83% the weight of lead, so after all is said and done, the weights are going to be pretty similar, except you might be able to get considerably more Cerrobend into a shell (depending on the shell).

There's obviously a place for using both metals as loco weight, along with tungsten and even depleted uranium (as Jim Fitzgerald did with a Big Boy years ago).  Simply dismissing one metal because it's not as heavy as another is ignoring the point that some are easier to work with than others and may be more appropriate in different applications.

For the metric-impaired, one cubic inch of Lead weighs .41 lbs and one cubic inch of Cerrobend weighs .34 lbs.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:30:06 AM by robert3985 »

mmagliaro

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 12:50:20 AM »
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I bought a 12" x 12" sheet of 1/32" thick lead from Rotometals for 10 bucks (plus shipping).
That is mighty easy to cut and form against the insides of a round shell, so easy, in fact, that
I have no desire to try melting and pouring custom weights.

Now, if I could get tungsten sheet that thin for a good price it would be very interesting to try.
It is hard as diamonds, but maybe in a sheet that thin, one could make it obey and bend it to fit in a shell.

For now, tungsten cubes, little disks, and lead sheet, I guess.

I made a weight for my Mikado from lead sheet and tungsten plates.  It's 20g, so that's better than the 10 or 12g stock
weight.  Even with a GHQ boiler on it, the entire thing will weigh only about 115g.
That really isn't as much as it seems even though it's an improvement.
A Kato F unit weighs about 125g.

After it's all together, I'll see if I can sneak in more tungsten or lead.   All of this started with me wondering if
I could build my engine without having to rely on the traction tire, but I don't think that's going to be possible.

Mark W

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2014, 01:08:14 AM »
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Where's the 4 pound Mikado when you need it?   :facepalm:
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peteski

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 01:37:55 AM »
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Where's the 4 pound Mikado when you need it?   :facepalm:

LOL!  I remember Sharkman from the A-board. He might have also posted that info on the A-board, because I seem to recall reading this in the past (and I'm not on Trainboard).

I especially liked "I even played with the alloys to get even higher weights, but they ended up breaking flex track out of the ties, or bowed the rails out of gauge."   :|

Can a nickel stainless steel alloy really be that dense?  Nickel density is 8.908 g/cubic cm. Iron is 7.874 g/cubic cm and carbon (graphite) is  2.267 g/cubic cm. I don't see how an alloy of those 3 elements could be denser than the heaviest one (nickel).  Lead density is 11.34 g/cubic cm.   It puzzles me that a frame of an N scale Mikado made from a nickel stainless steel would weight 4lb...   :|

That entire Trainboard thread is a big joke.  Silly me!  :facepalm:
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 01:42:41 AM by peteski »
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Chris333

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2014, 01:40:38 AM »
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Bob, The point is you only have X amount of space and after filling that space you want it as heavy as possible. Bismuth is easy and works well and I even have it in the sand done of my first Mikado, but I built it like 20 years ago. Now I would make it heavier. And I believe Max found some lead that is more pure.

mmagliaro

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 03:11:12 AM »
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Bob, The point is you only have X amount of space and after filling that space you want it as heavy as possible. Bismuth is easy and works well and I even have it in the sand done of my first Mikado, but I built it like 20 years ago. Now I would make it heavier. And I believe Max found some lead that is more pure.

For the record, I tried to cut a 1" square as carefully as I could to weigh it and check the density of the Rotometals lead.
It came in at about 10.5 g/cm^3, not the theoretical 11.34, but pretty darn good, and remember, I am weighing this
on a $30 digital scale I bought off eBay, so it's only approximate.


PiperguyUMD

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 10:26:06 AM »
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I was successful making several castings using your favorite epoxy, JB Weld mixed with craft sand. But I had to make a ex pattern first.  Seriously. The clay will work really well.


Really though all you need is an old spoon or stainless measuring cup and a pair of vise grips.  I like to let the surface flash before I pour.

Did you use a certain kind of wax for this process or can you use plain old paraffin?

u18b

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 10:39:29 AM »
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In a word---

Temp-Lo

Well, this is probably where it came from.

http://www.csalloys.com/products-cerrobend-alloy.html


Ron Bearden
CSX N scale Archivist
http://u18b.com

"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

haasmarc

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 12:24:10 PM »
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Hey PiperguyUMD,

Check your PM's.

Marc Haas
Keeping the Reading alive in N scale!

Lemosteam

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Re: Kato Mikado weight info and ideas
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 02:46:55 PM »
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Piperguyumd, plain old gulf candle wax.