3 poles for all!

[victor miranda]

To save this discussion from going too far.......

It's all been said before: http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55311&SearchTerms=3,pole

You are never going to convince Victor that a 3 pole motor is satisfactory for 90% of the people or that that 90% of the people are not willing to pay the difference for a better motor.

All I heard this Christmas season at the hobby shop... "$20 for a train car!?!?! That's crazy." and we are talking about Athearn and Walther HO offerings. You don't want to hear what the comment was about $20 N scale cars. The average customer is very price consious and does not understand the how or why, only that it cost's $20 when they think it should cost $10.

ummmm,  you never know what might convince me of anything.

You have convinced me.   
There are people who think 20 dollars is a lot to pay for an HO boxcar.
hohohohohoho...  certainly! I am not willing to pay 20 dollars for an HO boxcar.... hahahahahohohoho

I don't spend other people's money lightly.
In fact I think the bachmann 3 pole locos are all over priced.
I get there two ways. First, I know 3 pole motors are cheap
and decidedly cheaper than 5 pole motors.
Second is that I know what locos with 5 pole motors cost.

The b-mann FM thing sells for 25 dollars? (really?)
and b-mann only wants 25 more dollars for the 44 tonner?

one of those items is miss-priced...
I am inclined to think the 44 tonner is over the proper price.
(see? I want cheaper.) I know the prices of the Atlas gp7/9's
and the b-mann is WAAAAY over priced in comparison.

We (you and me, skipgear) know the motor is the cause of cogging and
we also know the past versions of that motor can be short lived.

now before we drift too far off 
I want to point out that 3 pole motor can motivate our models
while I do prefer 5 pole motors, I also like cheap models.
I have purchased many b-mann 0-6-0's.  I don't complain about them.

I really do not like folks telling me that a model that cogs at slow speeds
and cost more than one that does not cog is some how 'good enough.'

That is a complete disservice to our hobby.

victor

[TiVoPrince]

Choices  
would be nice to have.
1. 44T with 3 pole std. decoder $40.00US
2. 44T with 5 pole std. decoder $55.00US
3. 44T with 3 pole BEMF decoder $60.00US
4. 44T with 5 pole BEMF decoder $75.00US
5. 44T with coreless and std. decoder $100.00US
Unfortunately we are not offered these choices.  Bachmann offers a specific product and we can choose to buy it, run it, modify it to meet our own desires, expectations and skills.  Bachmann offers a product in a configuration that they are comfortable manufacturing, selling and supporting. 

Personally, I think the world is a better place with the Bachmann 44T, despite some choices made that I'm just puzzled by.  I certainly don't think that I am qualified to make all the decisions Bachmann has, so I'm left to decide what to do, buy or not. 

Actually it does come down to a simple decision in the end....

[victor miranda]

I think model railroaders have a right to be pissed when a company slips in lower grade materials.
 I don't doubt that Bachmann would have produced a better locomotive if they had given the 44-tonner
a 5 pole motor and a decent decoder.

That said, they did not choose to go that route.

What confuses me (like it's only one thing), is the discussion of value in the locomotive at $50, $75, or $100 dollars.
 I guess I don't see it as a collection of parts costing less than $8 in China, but rather a RTR N scale 44-tonner. 
That has value to me well beyond the parts.   
The cost of the model plus the new decoder is still less that I would be willing to pay for a model of this locomotive. 
It's either something you want at that price or it isn't. 

How many would turn up their noses at a new Spectrum K4 if it turned out to cost $125 and require an additional $25 decoder? 
If you would, I'd guess that a model wasn't worth $150 to you regardless of how it was made.

begin in the middle...
this subject: three pole motors vs five pole motors  is one that
I seem unable to leave without comment.  answering your post directly
will be a post that leaves 3 and 5 pole motors.

for any model we assign some value to it and decide to buy.
that or... await a better model or price or fatter wallet.

I can tell you the price of a k4 ranges from about 40 ish on ebay
for a minitrix that needs work to run...
to over 450 for a pretty k4 in brass that needs work to run
and in between, you can make a frankenstein k4 from
hard to find parts and pay about 250? for the kit of three locos
to supply the parts....

I would look the bachmann loco over.
If it was the same as the heavy mountain... I'd wait.
I know eventually one would need a motor anyway.
I'd get that.

victor

[victor miranda]

Choices  
would be nice to have.
1. 44T with 3 pole std. decoder $40.00US
2. 44T with 5 pole std. decoder $55.00US
3. 44T with 3 pole BEMF decoder $60.00US
4. 44T with 5 pole BEMF decoder $75.00US
5. 44T with coreless and std. decoder $100.00US
Unfortunately we are not offered these choices.  Bachmann offers a specific product and we can choose to buy it, run it, modify it to meet our own desires, expectations and skills.  Bachmann offers a product in a configuration that they are comfortable manufacturing, selling and supporting. 

Personally, I think the world is a better place with the Bachmann 44T, despite some choices made that I'm just puzzled by.  I certainly don't think that I am qualified to make all the decisions Bachmann has, so I'm left to decide what to do, buy or not. 

Actually it does come down to a simple decision in the end....

yep.
the logic there is good for me.

the actual prices would be informative.

BTW are the 40 dollar 44 tonners available?
victor

[DKS]

Unfortunately we are not offered these choices.

And with good reason. It would cost a manufacturer a small fortune to provide such a broad product range. Just the logistics of organizing and marketing them all would be prohibitive, and could easily increase the price of each version by half or more. At which point all of the products miss the desired price point, and sales would evaporate.

All too often customers think, "it would be so easy for them to do thus and so," forgetting that each 'thus' and every 'so' costs money.

[victor miranda]

And with good reason. It would cost a manufacturer a small fortune to provide such
 a broad product range. Just the logistics of organizing and marketing them all
would be prohibitive, and could easily increase the price of each version by half
or more. At which point all of the products miss the desired price point,
and sales would evaporate.

All too often customers think, "it would be so easy for them to do thus and so,
" forgetting that each 'thus' and every 'so' costs money.

oh well,
since the discussion is back to just money...

hi David K. Smith,

I'd like to think that I know.
Every thing has a price tag.

I have been told and I also believe,
that the more stock numbers you keep as a business
the more you will spend just to keep track of them,
 if nothing else.

I didn't think for a minute that b-mann would do such a thing as build
performance and price leveled locos.
K?

Now that we are on the subject of spending others folks money...
(mine, yours and b-mann's, anyone reading this...)

I am very interested in b-mann holding up their end of the bargain
where I trade my hard earned money for an item.
(what with it being my money and all)

Right now, b-mann owes me two small 5 pole motors. ( I own two b-mann 2-6-6-2)
I bring that up not because I think for a minute I'll ever get them,
rather, to point out the attitude that b-mann has towards my money
and what they have handed to me in return for my money. (or yours)
For years they advertised it as having a 5 pole motor.

Replacing an expensive part with an inferior part goes by a lot of names.
It can be a criminal act, if it is done without informing the purchaser.
For now, lets just call it discounting my money.
This is because I MUST spend more money to get what I want.
that is a discount for some one. 
In this case it is my money that is discounted.

so I have shown you that
bachmann has shown every kind of willingness to discount your money.
Yet you seem to think that I am not allowed to consider discounting
bachmann's money?

I know you don't believe me on this next point.
I do not object to b-mann using three pole motors.
I will call foul when b-mann charges good quality 5 pole motor prices
for that cheap 3 pole motor.
I will also call foul when some one tells me that 3 pole motor
is every bit as good as a 5 pole motor for model train work.

This forum is for us to talk about things that are important to us
and along the way our discussions may help others
should they manage to read this far into a thread like this.

What I want is prices and features to stay in the same ballbark.
The Atlas gp7 is a good model. If it is worth the asking price,
that b-mann gp7 is in no way worth more. (current prices)
How are we helping people who are new to our hobby
by telling them the b-mann gp7 is a 'beginners' loco?

The LL bl-2 is a far better beginner's loco.
the ll gp20, ll fa-fb's, ll darned near anything for that matter...

[DKS]

I was going to reply, but since time=money, it would cost me too much.

[victor miranda]

 ;D
you have no idea what that post cost me....


hi David K. Smith,
give it thought, if you are anything like me,
you might find a lot of time goes by and so not reply here.

This subject will come around again.
I have few doubts on that.

victor

[sizemore]

I was going to reply, but since time=money, it would cost me too much.

Yeah I gave up once the discussion deviated from "Can DCC improve 3 pole operation".

The S.

[Puddington]

I am getting so fed up with the bashing of Bachmann that I find myself defending them beyond the point that I would otherwise.....

Ok; "Capitalism".... Company "A" can sell whatever they want; with whatever motor they want; for whatever they want. It is not a "dis-service" to a hobby; that is an unbelievable statement... this is a hobby; not a life and death matter like automobile safety. If Bachmann or Kato want to put a three pole motor in their porduct for whatever reason they might have it is not your, nor my place to admonish them; it's their product.

It is our place to refuse to purchase the product if we choose; it is our place to express our dissatisfaction with the product (and it would be nice if we did so after at least witnessing the product in question; as opposed to blasting away before seeing it....) It's our right to say "I won 't buy it because...." But come on people; this isn't a life or death situation; Bachmann has not done anything other than offer a product. Buy it, don't buy it... I don't care but this Bachmann basing is uncalled for. You don't own the compnay; so you don't get a vote, other than with your wallet.

I particularily dislike those who "poo poo" those of us that express satisfaction with a specific product; I like my Bachmann H 16-44's; I am not a rookie; I own over 100 locomotives; the H 16-44 runs a damn sight better than my crappy Kato Mike... five pole and all; it plain out sucks. So lets allow for the possibility that some units of all ilks run better than others.

Is a five pole motor better than a three ? - yes. In 2010 can companies make a good, well made, fine running locomotive with a three pole motor ? - yes. Will it meet everyone's needs or waylay everyone's "long standing hated" of three pole motors ? - No.... Don't bash Bachmann for bringing a three pole motor; DCC equipped locomotive to market at a lower price than and Atlas DCC equipped unit - There are room for more than one unit in the market.

The discussion here has been informative until the "I hate Barfmann" stuff came in.... I own excellent three pole H 16-44's.....I own a piece of crap Kato five pole Mike......don't tell me that I am wrong - you know that there are variations in all production; so please don't make bold; sweeping statements that are insulting and wrong.

[victor miranda]

some time I wonder if I speak English...
this is one of those times.

Hi Puddington,

I am not sure how you got to this thought:

It is not a "dis-service" to a hobby; that is an unbelievable statement...
this is a hobby; not a life and death matter like automobile safety.

Have you read a movie critique?
the manufactures of movies read them and use them as a guide for making better movies.

You may not believe it but we are allowed to tell manufacturers
what is right and wrong with their products.
The funny part is that we often share those thoughts with each other also.
this thread is exactly that.

I am pretty sure there are some specific complaints about
bachmann units and some praises for other specific bachmann units

no matter how I read them,
I fail to see it as 'bachmann bashing.'
I think you are going to explain a little better what is a bash.
this is as opposed to a reasoned critisim.

In the interest is trying to understand your post,
is your comment/complaint about kato mikes what you consider kato bashing?

I may well have missed it, who said they hate b-mann?

victor

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Victor, you have a clear pissy streak when it comes to Bachmann and pole count. I would say you havea personal bias against the company.

Here is what I see. Bachmann had some tough choices a few years ago. They wanted better performing engines. They wanted better looking engines.

First priority: Improve pulling power for steam
Answer: Cast metal boilers.
Up Shot: But this costs money.

Second priority: Make their engines DCC compatable
Answer: the PC boards on their DCC ready engines was almost expensive as the DCC decoders themselves. Why not just slap a cheapy in and call it a day.
Up Shot: This too costs more  money than no DCC provisions

Third priority: Improve details
Answer: They needed a new motor to make scale width hoods on diesels and boilers on steam. This resulted in a rounded can motor that was a bit thinner than their previous motors. The motor could be scaleable so a smaller version fit inside micro engines such as the 44 Tonner.
Up Shot: New motors cost money and to counteract the cost of the other improvements, they deceded to go to three poles after engineering the motor to have close performance charecturistics to their old 5 pole motor. Yes, it may cog a bit more or spin a bit faster, but new advances in that DCC board and drive train parts would compensate for this.

And my point is: Bachmann needed to do something to keep the cost of the model down. Their newer engines run better than 95% of their older ones. Period. Add the tremendus level of detail, advances in paint and electronics and you can see they made the right decision.

[Mark5]

Daniel et al,

To be blunt, 3 poles, be they Bachmann, Kato, or Atlas - are inferior to a decent 5 pole. I can easily prove this.

As for Bachmann, they have a decent 5 pole, which they used in their 2-8-0 and the light USRA mountain. For some reason they went to a 3 pole on the $250 MSRP USRA heavy mountain. So they have a 5 pole motor in-house that they could have used. It is a weak argument that Bachmann wanted to save $5 on the motor to lower the MSRP from $255 to $250.

But ... now I'm in the thread drift.

I want realistic operation.

Mark

[Mark5]

Next on my list - to see what a better decoder (avec BEMF) can do for the 3 pole motors we're getting.

[sizemore]

some time I wonder if I speak English...
this is one of those times.

victor

I think it's haiku.  ;D

The S.