3 poles for all!

[victor miranda]

DCC in general is not going to solve problems. I it will help with slow speed operations... but to fix "pole issues" like we are talking you need BEMF. 

Add a BEMF decoder in a Bman 44T and you will see significant improvement.

 ;D
got a price on that back-EMF decoder?

I am not entirely sure you know
that by pointing out a better decoder
will mask that three pole motor problem
is stating that installing a five pole motor as original equipment
may well be a less expensive way to build the model in the first place.

lets be as accurate as possible.

a round number the b-mann 44 tonner is 50 dollars.
you are telling me that for another 25 dollars
I can get the 44 tonner of my dreams.

forgive me.  I can see a much cheaper path.

lets go with no decoder (two by your advice.)
use the savings to buy a 5 pole motor.
the Atlas/micro-ace 2-6-0 has a motor with 5 poles
and I am pretty sure it can fit

and atlas sells/sold them for a little less than 20 dollars.

for there to be any reason for me to concede that b-mann's locos with 3 pole motors are
an improvement ....
the price and performance need to cross.
lower price or close to similar performance...

The atlas/micro-ace loco was not hard to find at the 75 to 80 dollar price.
and no decoder to enhance the motors slow speed performance.

victor

[Ian MacMillan]

But a BEMF decoder can even improve a 5 pole!

There is much more to smoothing out poles to a BEMF decoder.

You get what you pay for. ;D

[victor miranda]

hi ian,

so what you are saying in all three posts you have made
 so far in this thread is:

who cares what you paid for the model in the first place.
buy a great decoder, it will cure the problem.

ok I can accept that.
now can we go back to talking about what b-mann is selling?

the original poster had as a point;
But please don't marginalize criticism of 3 pole motors.

Is what you meant that bachmann uses such a poor decoder,
the motor does not matter?

I can agree with that too.

please give me a little credit,
I know I can install a better motor/decoder/both

what I want is to buy a loco worth the asking price.
bachmann can do that one of two ways.

mostly, they can pass on the price savings
they get for using 3 pole motors.

they are charging 5 pole motor prices.
or they are charging a lot for those decoders they install.

victor

[Ian MacMillan]

The discussion of this thread was not MSRP...refer to the first post....it was about poles and how to improve a Bman 3 pole motors slow speed performance. And shy of replacing it with a 5 pole motor, it was suggested, by myself and others to use a BEMF decoder.

You posted that it cogs on DC and DCC

I posted that DCC will help the cogs, but in order to "cure" it you will need BEMF.

There is no reason to have to ponder over what I "ment"...its pretty clear...You said DCC decoder, and I said BEMF decoder. And I posted that because a decoder with BEMF is different, which you obviously know. When the topic is being guided by BEMF decoders, you cant say well on DCC it does this...because its not really what we are talking about; we are talking DCC with BEMF. The stock Bachmann decoder, as well as every other manufacture at this moment (Ok some of the Atlas Masters have some decoders with flashing DL features...), offers a straight el basico DCC decoder. They do not feature BEMF or any resemblance of it. From what I read about the Bman decoder is so stripped down its one click shy of being straight DC.

I'm not marginalizing criticism of 3 pole motors. Question was to how to improve slow speed performance. Guidance was issued.

You do get what you pay for. But I am referring to decoders, my bad on not being 'Pacific. I'd expect a decoder with more features such as BEMF or Speed Stabilization to be more than a straight el basico DCC decoder.

Is Bman overcharging for their decoder and motor? I think so. Their decoder is junk, and their motor is sub par. I don't think that the price is reasonable for what they are asking..... However that's not the discussion of this thread.

Discussion was not on what Bman should have done, or did. This topic could easily apply to any modern 3 poler.

As to the Atlas 2-6-0, try BEMF in that as well. Yes the Atlas 5 pole runs slick as $hit, but even 5-poles can have much noticeable improvement with BEMF.

[victor miranda]

the original post was pointing out that the b-mann three pole locos
ran poorly.
Specificly, the three pole was the source of the poor running.

He brought the topic out of the recent gp7 thread,
to make the point more generic.

Your posts about how to fix that problem...
were unclear on that point.

And now I do understand that the bachmann locos can be improved.
Thanks.

I have been stating that the locos being referenced do have issues
and they are created that way by b-mann
and that anyone stating they are 'good enough'
is ignoring what is clear to me.

The only possible point left is 'good enough.'
This discussion becomes a price, very quickly.

We agree that spending money past the original price of the model is possible,
by either buying a better motor or decoder or both.

The question that is left is; why is that additional money
required?

There is no doubt that b-mann can put the better motor or
better decoder in there.
And for less than we can.

It appears the cheapest path right now
looks to be the motor.

hohohohohoho
that could change.

Forgive me for quoting myself but it bears repeating....

the 3 pole vs 5 pole fight fails to have any meaning when
the cost of the magic throttle that hides ALL the flaws
of a 3 pole motor falls below the cost difference between the
two motors.

bachmann has decided a cheap decoder is 'good enough.'
I disagree.

victor

[DKS]

Forgive me for quoting myself but it bears repeating....

bachmann has decided a cheap decoder is 'good enough.'
I disagree.

Disagree all you want, but it would seem they're selling. That's what a manufacturer will be shooting for: the point at which the ROI meets their requirements.

I never understood people trying to second-guess manufacturers. They do what they do for reasons of their own. And unless a representative of a manufacturer was to make a presence on a public forum and disclose all of their reasoning (which is extremely doubtful for obvious reasons), all we're left with is the second-guessers and grousers spouting their woulda-coulda-shoulda noise. Which is sometimes vaguely amusing, but rarely useful.

[Ian MacMillan]

Your posts about how to fix that problem...
were unclear on that point.

I don't know how suggesting a BEMF decoder could be any more clear than exactly that. I did not provide a 6 page explanation as to why because Sizemore, who replied about the same time I did, already included a URL from Tonys DCC on how BEMF can work to solve some issues.

[Mark5]

Aww, come on! We all know companies make goofy decisions.  ;D (I've been a firsthand witness to more than a few).

I guess it strikes a nerve when the decisions serve to "dumb down" our beloved hobby.

Mark (I hope Kato never releases another loco with 3 pole motors)

[FrankCampagna]

Thank you. Probably the best comment on the matter I have seen.

Frank

Disagree all you want, but it would seem they're selling. That's what a manufacturer will be shooting for: the point at which the ROI meets their requirements.

I never understood people trying to second-guess manufacturers. They do what they do for reasons of their own. And unless a representative of a manufacturer was to make a presence on a public forum and disclose all of their reasoning (which is extremely doubtful for obvious reasons), all we're left with is the second-guessers and grousers spouting their woulda-coulda-shoulda noise. Which is sometimes vaguely amusing, but rarely useful.

[TiVoPrince]

Realistically
if the standard for posting is that I be clear and concise I may have to stop posting now. 

Personally I just cost factor in a BEMF/Transponding decoder to every locomotive purchase.  BEMF can improve the low speed performance of most motors and I really want my locomotives to creep if possible.  If they will not creep, its off to the auction with them...

[victor miranda]

I don't know how suggesting a BEMF decoder could be any more clear than exactly that. I did not provide a 6 page explanation as to why because Sizemore, who replied about the same time I did, already included a URL from Tonys DCC on how BEMF can work to solve some issues.

the point being that three poles are the cause of the poor running.

fixes are nice.  it wouldn't hurt to agree the original problem explicitly.

victor

[victor miranda]

Disagree all you want, but it would seem they're selling. That's what a manufacturer will be shooting for: the point at which the ROI meets their requirements.

I never understood people trying to second-guess manufacturers. They do what they do for reasons of their own. And unless a representative of a manufacturer was to make a presence on a public forum and disclose all of their reasoning (which is extremely doubtful for obvious reasons), all we're left with is the second-guessers and grousers spouting their woulda-coulda-shoulda noise. Which is sometimes vaguely amusing, but rarely useful.

second guessing ?

ha!  that comes after I get people to quit trying to tell me
it is 'good enough.'
We ain't there yet.

To get the manufacturers to fix the problem.
and do not mistake the problem here...
I first must get the fools telling me or anyone else
that 'good enough' acctually makes the grade of good enough.

we know better is possible
AND
does not cost anymore to build.

the gp7 is not worth the street prices I see.
the 44 tonner is a little harder to call.

If the faibanks-morse thing is really going for 25 bucks
they may be worth all that.
don't miss that "may"

victor

[SkipGear]

To save this discussion from going too far.......

It's all been said before: http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55311&SearchTerms=3,pole

You are never going to convince Victor that a 3 pole motor is satisfactory for 90% of the people or that that 90% of the people are not willing to pay the difference for a better motor.

All I heard this Christmas season at the hobby shop... "$20 for a train car!?!?! That's crazy." and we are talking about Athearn and Walther HO offerings. You don't want to hear what the comment was about $20 N scale cars. The average customer is very price consious and does not understand the how or why, only that it cost's $20 when they think it should cost $10.

[Mark5]

Personally I think it is unfortunate for the hobby (if true) that 90% of people are happy with the performance of 3 pole motors. Bachmann Spectrum locos, which used to be decent 5 polers (the 2-8-0 is a "bute") are now coming out with these inferior 3 pole motors. Heck, even Kato lowered their standards and went "3 poling" on the GS4. This is a disturbing pattern.

To me this makes it bad for the small percentage of us that care about realistic operation.

One of the mantras at Railwire in the past was about lowering cars. What's different about wanting realistic operation?

Cheers,

Mark

[Mr. G]

I think model railroaders have a right to be pissed when a company slips in lower grade materials.  I don't doubt that Bachmann would have produced a better locomotive if they had given the 44-tonner a 5 pole motor and a decent decoder.

That said, they did not choose to go that route.

What confuses me (like it's only one thing), is the discussion of value in the locomotive at $50, $75, or $100 dollars.  I guess I don't see it as a collection of parts costing less than $8 in China, but rather a RTR N scale 44-tonner.  That has value to me well beyond the parts.   The cost of the model plus the new decoder is still less that I would be willing to pay for a model of this locomotive.  It's either something you want at that price or it isn't. 

How many would turn up their noses at a new Spectrum K4 if it turned out to cost $125 and require an additional $25 decoder?  If you would, I'd guess that a model wasn't worth $150 to you regardless of how it was made.