TheRailwire
General Discussion => Layout Engineering Reports => Topic started by: randgust on February 27, 2025, 11:00:47 AM
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This project started several years ago with rather minimal intentions.
I was aware that the majority of Climax A locomotives were actually narrow gauge, and after building several hundred kits for the standard gauge ones, stumbled onto the Rokuhan SA-001 chassis in Z, which by itself, it a little rocket sled, but was designed somewhat like the Kato 11-105. I discovered I could marry the drive train and pickups with the Rokuhan trucks, and I'm off.
Now... I needed a test track. With curves and switches. Rokuhan also had Kato-like Z track in 4 1/2 inch radius, hmm.... and I'd already built several Ttrak modules. So back in 2019 I made what was essentially a test track for Nn3, but on footprint as a Ttrak module. The other 'coincidence' was that my PRR Salamanca Branch modules had a lumber mill just south of West Hickory, McCabe Lumber, that had a 3' Class A Climax. McCabe is documented, but not photographed, and had both a catastrophic fire and then a flood in 1908. The locomotive was sold to a sand operation not far away, and was photographed there. That's my Class A, looks just like it.
I also met Mark Graulty (aka "Narrowminded") and he was expirimenting with doing Code 40 rail on printed tie strip, so I put that on my test track to see how it perfomed. It made its first public showing in 2019, with my Nn3 Climax A running around on a loop as a demo, but it was all plywood plains.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe%20Module%20Altoona.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe%20Module%20Altoona.jpg
Nothing much more developed. Then several things happened over the last couple of years. First, after a couple of years, Mark's attachment method to the tie strips using Pliobond reacted terribly to the tie strips and they just disintegrated right at the rail base. AND, the #4 Rokuhan turnout had repeated derailments with my Climax. Had to replace the turnout, tear out all the Code 40, replaced it with Marklin sectional other than the Rokuhan loop. Almost but not quite a complete fail.
Now I'm wondering how this makes any sense as a sceniced layout module. No photos of the real mill, but it was a small operation. Circular saw instead of bandsaw. Was right beside PRR line for sure. So, I need a minimal log pond, and some kind of service siding,..... would have to be dual gauge? Can that even be done? Did an experiment on sawing up Rokuhan and gluing a third rail to one side making standard gauge. OMG it works. Nuts, but works....
(http://www.randgust.com/Rokuhan%20dual%20gauge%2001.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/Rokuhan%20dual%20gauge%2001.jpg
Now I need to dual-gauge a turnout..... and that worked too....
(http://www.randgust.com/Rokuhan%20dual%20gauge%2003.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/Rokuhan%20dual%20gauge%2003.jpg
and put in a pair of Marklin curved turnouts to get a log dump spur and a storage track where the mill would be, and open up a hole for a log pond. That's by 2023 when I paired it with the Hickory Valley module as a dual demo at Altoona, but still more of a test track than anything else. It did surprise me, though, how well the Markln curved turnouts worked, far better pickup and durability than I expected. And painting the Rokuhan like a dirt embankment instead of ballast, painting the rail, and weathering the ties wasn't as bad as I expected.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe1a.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe1a.jpg
As I started to think of it as a tiny layout instead of a test track, you realize that you need a way to switch it, and you literally couldn't switch the pond without more track to swap trains. The next major breakthrough was wondering if the Showcase Nn3 Shay could be modified like I did my Climax, adding a pickup truck to the front.......
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I'll be watching this one with a great deal of interest! Can't wait to see it in person. Too bad Mark's track tricks didn't work out.
But necessity is the mother of invention!
Lee
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Nice solution for the dual gauge track. This is going to be so cool!
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Mark and I talked about the issue, he was convinced I got a batch of resin that reacted poorly, he'd changed his material, but I'd already replaced everything. But yeah, the Code 40 on tie strip (no joiners, all individual feeds) looked fantastic. Concept worked.
Now, it's a bit of a side detour but I'd never have gotten motivated to finish this module project without solid power, so....
I'd always liked the looks of the Showcase Nn3 and N logging locomotives that Tom Knapp designed, the castings were superb. Unsure about the drives, and having a 'dead' pickup truck in the front seemed like a fatal flaw if you were doing anything with switches at all. Having the pickup truck hot on my Climax A for Nn3 taught me about the Rokuhan truck, you don't suppose.....?
Well, yeah. I used Kato leftover pickup strips, folded up, insulated with .005 styrene, and ACC'd to the bottom of the frame, to hit the pickup ears on the Rokuhan truck. Hotwired back to the drive unit...
(http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay01.JPG)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay01.JPG
(http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay04.JPG)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay04.JPG
And in testing, it worked spectacularly well. Pickup was just solid. Slow speed is excellent, using the Blue Snail controller I have. That convinced me to finish this thing with two well-performing Nn3 locomotives, because if it is at a show, you can be sure at least one won't work.
I was going to do a build thread on this, but it would just get lost on the narrow gauge forum. I'm repeating the hot truck process (later) on the standard gauge N Shay, will do a thread then, same idea, using the Kato 11-105 truck for pickup. That works too, by the way.
So I'll skip the the end, I've posted this before, but this is the end locomotive project. Without well-performing, slow-speed logging locomotives, this entire project is a dud, so that cinched it, full speed ahead on this module. With two, and Tom Knapps log cars and flatcars, this is a functioning project rather than a test track.
(http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay21.JPG)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/Nn3shay21.JPG
This is the original test model for the Nn3 Climax A, I've weathered it heavily, this is the builders photo:
(http://www.randgust.com/CL18Nn302.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/CL18Nn302.jpg
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Is McCabe Lumber any relation to the BTS sawmill?
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Not that I know of. My West Hickory McCabes had enough bad luck for two mills. They started late - 1906, had a big flood that put all the inventory down the Allegheny River in 1908, put things back together, and got finished off by a fire about 1911. The Climax A, however ended up at the Warren Silica / Ross Hill Silica in 1911 after the mill closed. There are no photographs of the mill, and it only earned a single text column in Walter Casler's "Allegheny Valley Logging Railroads". I've never found a USGS map, or a parcel map, or anything on it except newspaper articles and the locomotive record. The little Climax A was such a honey though. It survived until 1927.
The sand operation is well documented in the book "Digging Sand" (Peterson). Climax A's working in a quarry aren't particularly common.
The mill I'm doing is freelance, following general photos of the era, and heavily influenced by the design of the mill museum at Galeton, PA.
https://paparksandforests.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/pa-lumber-museum.jpg
That's the general layout and scale for a single-boiler, small circular saw mill. McCabe listed a daily capacity of 40,000 feet a day, my Wheeler mill was 100,000 a day, and that West Virginia McCabe with a pair of double band mills could probably do that and much more.
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Now the messy part.
I've been a believer in hardshell since I started model railroading. What really cinched it was that I did it on the Hickory Valley module, then at one point dropped and rolled it down a flight of stairs. The case held, the hard shell held, and I decided that the durability was worth the weight. I'm well aware that foam is a lot lighter. I did do one portable layout in foam layers and was never happy with it.
So, step on in what I have to do was laying out the backdrop, then the physical scenery to meet it. The 'hidden part' of the loop is behind the hill. No planned tunnel here, it will just disappear into trees on either end. Lots of corrugated cardboard and cardboard strip, and a finish layer of newsprint.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe05.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe05.jpg
Then the really messy part, cover everything in tape, paper and black plastic and start slinging plaster-soaked paper towel bits and a layer of patching plaster over top to smooth any irregularities....
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe06.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe06.jpg
Next, the usual coat of latex brown over everything, so that when I start texture materials there's always brown under there somewhere so no plaster ever shows.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe07.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe07.jpg
Before I do ground cover and texturing I need to know exactly where the major structures go, so scenery progress stops for a bit while I scramble on the major structures. I laid out the sawmill building after studying a lot of photos and figuring out where the loading dock and runways had to go. And the engine shed, finished that one last night except for track doors. Next will be the boilerhouse. I've also got a small water tank.
I've got to paint the 'creek' and pond bottom to get some depth illusion - one of the last things will be Woodland Scenics deep pour.
PS I'm also not a believer in Hydrocal. 'Real plaster', man, that stuff is really, really tough if you do it right and have the support system right. I use wood glue (non-soluble) to assemble all the cardboard supports, and plywood connections. And that painting is really important, because when you start putting down texture layers and spraying them in, getting water in the plywood and cardboard, you don't want that.
Oh, and those of you that saw the HVRR at Altoona will be reminded that I had to literally point when I wanted someone to throw a turnout for me, the Caboose Hobbies ground throws were so blended in to the scenery as to be invisible. Big ugly black blobs, but not much longer.
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Things operationally changed when I got the second locomotive. Instead of 'switching cars', I'll just be 'switching trains' during a show. It's pretty simple, I'm sure I'll get enough attention just by having running Nn3 logging on Ttrak. I'll have one loaded log train behind the Shay, and another empty log train behind the Climax. I'll shuttle those in and out of the 'hidden' hill side of the loop. The speed on both these is absolutely creeping, they can do walking speed. I have enough block isolation in DC I can hold a train at various spots. But at least now I don't have to uncouple cars in Nn3!
I haven't decided yet if I'm going to use my sound system I developed on the HVRR, which was a tape deck for various train sounds and a loop MP3 player for the sawmill. I observed at Altoona that the ambient room noise was loud enough that it's hard to hear anyway. There's always the smart @$$ that asks why I didn't put sound in them..... I made the Jamison Ttrak module so incredibly complicated with sound chips and working oil wells I have no particular appetite for repeating that level of animation, electronics and machinery. I'm sure DKS could have a field day animating the inside of the sawmill, me....? Not yet at least.
The only really tricky part of this was realizing that the dual gauge track ends up with the 'north rail' either under control of the Ttrak inner main standard gauge, or the isolated power control of the Nn3 track - which is a plug-in throttle on the fascia. The Blue Snail hand-held only has a 9V battery in it, so I have none of the usual power headaches in this situation. And on that dual gauge rail, I have a DPDT to control who has control of the dual gauge.
My fathers sawmill had a 'transfer table' for the timber buggies right off the green chain sorter to go to the various runways, that solves my entire lumber handling problem. Stay tuned.
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What is the source of the sawmill buildings?
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I looked at every kit out there and none were the right size or even moderately accurate, I'm doing 1904-11 remember.
Mill, boilerhouse and engine shed are all scratchbuilt, mostly wood with commercial windows. I have an itty-bitty water tank kit from B&S structure co that will either be used or tossed, not sure which.
I've got all 12 of the Logging Railroad Era of Pennsylvania books, including what I contributed to, so I've got a lot of photos of smaller mills to emulate.
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I have the logging books besides the 2 that are hard to find. And last year bought the 2 book set that I thought was a full reprint... It is also missing the hard to get ones. Was worth the $, but I wish it had the missing sections.
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This is getting down and dirty now on laying out the sawmill. Lots of progress, basic building complete, trying to figure out the docks and the runways.
Nothing looks more like real wood than real wood, so this is an exercise in Northeast stripwood and sheet stock and staining everything before assembly. The 'standard' construction method in that era was board and batten. And nothing ever painted. It was never expected to last very long. In the case of McCabe, it didn't. You look at other small mills for rather 'standard practice' and just wing it for a model. I've laid things out basically to work out log length, which gives you carriage dimensions, an edger deck, and a green line with a trim saw. Then to the runways. My Dad's sawmill had that neat transfer table across the back for the pushcarts, that's the space solution for my runways as well.
My HVRR mill at Endeavor was a major mill, and they also had major fires to rebuild from. So the entire plant, including the shops, was encased in corrugated metal sheet. That's one of very few I've seen like that. The little guys like this one never had that luxury. It's amazing how many had wood shingle roofs, or tarpaper with battens on it. No wonder they burned down.
That 1908 summer flood was a doozy, it washed out everything in a wide area, took out the PRR main line, the HVRR across the river, and reportedly washed the entire inventory of McCabe sawmill down the river. They never really recovered from it. There's a great postcard showing the HVRR track just diving into the creek from that flood, and up at Trunkeyville the PRR main dangling over a side creek canyon, almost took out the depot.
(http://www.randgust.com/HVbridge1908.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/HVbridge1908.jpg
(that third rail was 48" dual gauge dating back to the Reno RR in 1887)
Trunkeyville - same flood washout, second photo, PRR main line, just missed depot
(https://www.west2k.com/papix/trunkeyville.jpg)
Link: https://www.west2k.com/papix/trunkeyville.jpg
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Progress on the enginehouse area, giving me motivation to carry the project forward:
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe08.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe08.jpg
Object is to get the footprint and basics of the major structures established before starting ground cover and scenery here.
That's what Marklin Z track looks like if it is painted and weathered.
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Once it's buried in grit it will be fine. As much as true scale rail would dazzle in the photos, if the trains don't run, you've wasted the effort.
Coming together nicely.
Lee
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Well, not like I didn't try. I had high hopes for Mark's approach with Code 40 rail on tie strip, and I still have a bunch of it, but like you said, this is a 'running' module. First sign of real trouble was when the gauge narrowed on a curve and the Climax A simply fell over sideways.
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Isn’t a Climax falling over normal behavior? :D
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Not quite prototypical, but you can slightly cheat a narrow gauge by superelevating the track slightly. Ran into a similar issue on my 2x4 where some of the dimensions tightened after ballast and Sculptamold. Still tight, but leaning into the curve slightly keeps the drivetrain torque from twisting the trucks out of the gauge.
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One of the things I've been dreading is building the runways. In the 1890's up through the 1930's, you didn't have forklifts. Lumber came off the green line (remember almost all steam mills were two-story jobs with the cutting deck above the power machinery) and were put onto carts. Most mills put these on rails, pushed by hand, and rolled out to stack the lumber to air dry as dry kilns were still rare.
McCabe was a challenge because of the limited real estate on how to imagine that. I borrowed an idea from my fathers sawmill up through the 1960's, he had a transfer table for the carts between the green line and the kilns that put the carts sideways into various runs into the kilns. That would work here, too.
So this weekend was spent hacking up, staining and gluing up package after package of Northeastern basswood. I do jigs to cut and set them up, pinning them to wax paper with the drawing and balsa underneath to hold the pins. Had to make about 55 sets of pilings, 5 runways, the transfer table, and the cart. Very tedious, very slow, very repetitive. Right up there with making trees. Ideal weekend, cold and wet.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe9.jpg)
link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe9.jpg
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe10.jpg)
link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe10.jpg
This really shows off the size difference between a narrow gauge boxcar and a standard gauge boxcar on the dual gauge. The 'black holes' in the hillsides will be behind trees; basically everything turns green by the time I'm done.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe11.jpg)
link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe11.jpg
I still have more diagonal bracing to put on, just ran out of time. You wouldn't' think you could suck up about 30 lineal feet of basswood in N scale, best guess based on empty packages.
At this point it's probably a blessing that there are no surviving photos of the mill. I'm freebasing a mill based on the production, age, standard practices of the era, similar mill photos and doing the layout to fit the geography of the module. If I actually knew what it looked like it would be more difficult!
I found some small-medium circular saw mills in Casler's "Tionesta Valley" that closely resemble this, mix that with the Lumber Museum in Galeton, PA, which is very similar to this. There's big gaps at the museum in terms of no log dump (how the the railroad get the logs in the pond?) and while there are a couple runways, there's no lumber. They demo the mill under steam only a couple weekends a year.
The carts were on rails, I did the front runway already - which is HO 1x2's prepainted dark rust brown and set to 24" gauge. Another thing to get to on the rest of them.
This is the big W&D mill at Endeavor but the runways are very visible, along with the 'tracks' on them. My father said that the runways extended for almost a mile away from the mill at the peak - two mills, no kilns, all air dry.
http://www.randgust.com/birdseye.jpg
This is 'pretty close', and after studying the hardware personally, helped me design my own mill building. What it's missing is the log pond and runway operations, but the inside of the mill is nicely documented for a small circular saw operation like I am modeling. There is a boilerhouse, and all the steam engines are 'underneath' the cutting deck. They show them stickering on the cart, wrong, it would be stickered on the pile off the runways. And they have the only carts I've ever seen that didn't use rails on the runway decks.
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So very cool. Can't wait to see it in person.
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I drew up the Manns Creek RR a while back. This yard area is where their lumber stacks went to dry. All the outlying green lines were for logging. The main RR in yellow was used for coal. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xT4OtKUkby4kT1Won3OxxfRTOV2YRRkN&ll=37.96749591839276%2C-80.93959461892321&z=17
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I wanted to get past a couple things I wasn't sure how well they would work.
First, the entire design of this thing was really an oval. But I hate ovals, every layout I've ever done dating back to 1968 has had some staging. So in this case, the back of the oval is buried in the hillside and backdrop, entire length. But I don't want tunnels, no dirt-cheap logging railroad ever had tunnels. So it just has to disappear into trees. Well, how will I do that.....hmmm
And the second one is that considering the size of even a SMALL drying yard, it's a massive amount of stripwood sacrifice. I can reduce it by some scribed sheet, and even more to put balsa blocks where the edges can't be seen on the interior, but how will that look?
And then like every Pennsylvania module I've done since 1976, trees, trees, and more trees. And dense enough you can't see for the trees. Little trees by the hundred, this is all second growth in this area by the river as it was first logged in the 1850's. Logging railroads extended into the hills where it was impractical to drag distance with horses, but around the towns and mills, things had resprouted.
So, one test of the 'disappear in to trees', one test of lumber stacks, and about 25% of the tree cover.... (Woodland Scenics foliage balls on sticks)
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe12.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe12.jpg
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OK, well, I finally finished the trees. Yuck. Glad that's over.
And I got the turf layer all in, and the dirt layers, and even decided to risk putting in the cinders and the ballast.
That's scary, because diluted white glue migrates better than Monarch Butterflies, even when you tape off the turnouts. You never know if you're glue one solid. And with the Rokuhan Zs, they are just like Katos, there's stuff up inside that the only way you can clean them is yank them back out.
So imagine my relief when I yanked the tape, cleaned and inspected the rails after ballast, and everything still worked.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe13.jpg)
link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe13.jpg
I've got a lot of detail to keep me busy, and pouring the water is next. But hey, it still runs, if I had to put it in a show now I could.
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I always wondered if people cut out the roadbed from under those turnouts so you can get to them from under the layout.
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Like the Katos, the contacts and electrical switching are up inside the turnouts. I suppose you could tear all that out, but the ties are cast in. I don't solder the turnouts in, I suppose I could get them out, but getting in from underneath? Wow, not really feasible.
I did hand-paint the roadbed the dirt color, painted the ties and rails, before ever installed. So after a dirt berm is built into them, they look pretty good to me. And on the yard turnouts, I painted them cinder black and painted the rails and ties, so after you blend in cinders the appearance is actually just fine.
I put a single half-layer of cork under the Marklin track and turnouts and that brings them up to the Rokuhan level.
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Pretty much just final details and scenery, but this shows the geometry as well as anything, and clearly shows the dual gauge track here.
(http://www.randgust.com/McCabe%20aerial.jpg)
Link: http://www.randgust.com/McCabe%20aerial.jpg