TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: ncbqguy on May 04, 2022, 02:22:59 PM
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All-
I am doing a clinic at the upcoming N Scale Enthusiast Convention being held June 15-19, 2020 here in Nashville and would like to solicit any insights you can share on each of the aspects of "Operations" as outlined in the title.
I am not attempting to get into detailed niceties of Operating systems but rather present the general concept to encourage Model Railroaders to "get into" Operations.
I am posting this here to garner N Scale-specific views so Administrators pleas don't move it to another area that many of us don't visit. I have also queried the Operations list and my old operating group in the Chicago area.
I feel that "Operations" is a great way to establish and expand a network of Model Railroaders and a great way to get new people into the Hobby of Model Railroading.
I am not attempting to get into detailed specifics but rather present the general concept to encourage Model Railroaders to "get into" Operations.
I am posting this here to garner N Scale-specific views. I have also queried the Operations list and my old operating group in the Chicago area.
I feel that "Operations" is a great way to establish and expand a network of Model Railroaders and a great way to get new people into the Hobby of Model Railroading.
Charlie Vlk
Mt. Juliet, TN
By the way, if you haven't signed up for the NSE Convention, please consider doing so. I am not a "collector"....just an "accumulator" like most of us are and have thoroughly enjoyed every one I have attended...I feel it is the premier gathering of N Scalers from all over the world!!!
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1) Operations in N scale can be harder due to the physics of smaller trains.
- Dirty track
- equipment weight
- space
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1) Operations in N scale can be harder due to the physics of smaller trains.
- Dirty track
- equipment weight
- space
Ability to read car numbers, as that's what most operations based layouts use to distinguish/designate/match cars to cards/switch lists etc
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You don't necessarily have to get stuck in a pile of cards and a magnifying glass to have a more interesting layout than just run a random train in circles, although you certainly can.
Depending on how you look at it, N has an advantage in that many of us work in multi-car blocks. It's not hard to figure out that the six-car block of tank cars goes to the fuel oil supplier, the bulkhead flats go to the lumberyard, the piggyback flats to the ramp. Most of our industries are big enough to handle more than one car.
I evolved into a relatively simple car block-swap system where an entire block gets cut out of through freights in the yard, gets reblocked into two locals, and the car types are so disgustingly obvious on what goes to where you don't need to squint for individual car numbers. Smaller car blocks are swapped at industries and the car flow is not controlled by individual cars or a random deck; it's a lot more typical in the modern era for similar-block car swaps loads vs. empties to an industrial sized customer. The cars return to the yard, get reblocked into their respective through freights, and it's a constant cycle of 'usually' 3 block sets of cars in motion; one on the through freight, one in the yard, and one at the industry itself. And at various times the yards may be almost packed or nearly empty. That is combined with a sequential train schedule of the through freights from hidden storage to the visible division yard. And the entire world doesn't screech to a halt if you just want to suspend the cycle and just run trains for fun for a while, just pick it up again where you left off. You get switching without ANY paperwork needed other than a basic guide for a new operator.
There is a prototype for this, you know. If you've ever worked in actual car billing for unit trains, you know the concept of 'first car - last car' and you are NOT allowed to re-arrange the cars, you're billing and receiving by the block to a single receiver.
The 1950's era of individual car numbers to individual one-car small industries is typical in HO, it's not so typical in N. I model '72, and it's just about the very end of freight houses and majority one-car shipments. Most of my industries take 2-6 cars per cycle. 2 cars to the lumberyard, 6 hopper cars to the ballast pit, 2-3 tanks to the oil distributor, etc. The only thing left for 40' boxcars is the freight house, and those are all home-road cars.
The other thing is that despite a lot of opinion, train performance including low-speed switching, lack of derailments, magnet uncoupling, etc. is just as practical in N as HO.
Our local railroad runs about that simple; 20-40 tanks of asphalt to the refinery every day, swap empties for loads, same with ethanol and LPG, swap 2-8 covered hoppers to the plastic molder, take the damaged cars to the contract repair shop. Lather, rinse, repeat. Single car moves are darn near extinct.
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The shortline I model in N scale does not have that many customers, and each take fairly unique car types. It is easy to sort an incoming train from the CSX interchange and block them for the local road jobs without the need for car cards. Pick ups and set outs are fairly straight forward. I do use a simple switch list. For example: Pick up 5 empty boxcars from Bay #2 at Kimberly Clark. Spot 4 incoming loads of sheet pulp in the same bay.
Some of the customers do take in cars that contain hazardous materials, like ethanol. This adds an operational twist, in that buffer cars are required between the locomotives and the hazmat loads. I make sure to operate that way on the layout, since it is required on the prototype.
I try to keep it simple, as most of my guests don't have an understanding as to how actual railroads operate. I would increase the complexity for more experienced operators. Hell, on a busy day, the Housatonic would not have more than 3 road jobs out on the same day, so I keep my model operations simple too.
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I'm quite happy railfanning on my T-trak layout, which has a single siding that's mostly used for storage. As John said, N scale doesn't lend itself to operations.
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I'm quite happy railfanning on my T-trak layout, which has a single siding that's mostly used for storage. As John said, N scale doesn't lend itself to operations.
Well, there were (couple owners moved away) at least 4 N scale layouts in my immediate area regularly running operating sessions, and also participating in "Operation RailRun", a private, invitation-only annual meet of model RR operators (of all scales). I'm not sure if I would agree with the "doesn't end itself to operations" statement.
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"N scale doesn't lend itself to operations."
Absolutely, completely, irredeemably WRONG.
There is no reason that an N scale layout cannot operate just as well (and as interestingly) as an HO layout. Mine does. At least, so I've been told by numerous HO operators that have run my layout. And if anyone doubts it, you have a standing invitation to visit the NKP in N Scale in Champaign, IL and judge for yourself.
My recipe for reliable N scale operations is as follows:
1. Engines must run flawlessly. No stalling, no jerking. And they must be able to run smoothly at 1 smph.
2. Trackwork must likewise be flawless. No kinks; absolutely flat subroadbed to avoid humps, and smooth transitions from curves to tangents and vice-versa. I don't have grades, so I don't need to worry about that.
3. Rolling stock needs to be weighted to improve tracking. 1 oz. per car. Unweighted, too-light rolling stock is an invitation to derailments and poor operation.
4. Standardize on trucks/couplers/wheels. For me, it is MT couplers, all body-mounted, MT trucks, and Fox Valley wheelsets.
5. As others have said, keep the track clean to help with item 1.
As for operating sessions themselves, I take the "let's have fun moving trains" approach. My layout requires 7 operators, and I can accommodate up to 10. I use a very simplified waybill/car card system so it is easy to see where a car should be spotted. My jobs range from the very simple (mainline trains, which just leave the staging area, go to the main yard at Bellevue, then back to staging), to the modestly complex (running the local that switches Fostoria). I assign jobs based on an operator's skill set and interest. This keeps folks from getting overwhelmed and increases the fun factor. The simpler everything is, the more fun people have and the less one worries about making a mistake. I don't use a fast clock; I don't use CTC; I don't use train orders - instead, I use the "yell across the room" dispatching method, which is uncomplicated and simple. I'm not interested in trying to recreate a full-on prototype operating experience; I'm not interested in putting my operators under pressure; I'm interested in people having a good time while running trains in a facsimile of the prototype.
Sessions start at 9:00 a.m. and run until 12:00 or 12:30, almost always on Saturdays, and then I serve a sandwich lunch to operators afterward and debrief them on what they liked or didn't like about the session. I've done longer sessions (10:00 - 4:00 p.m.) on a friend's HO layout, and while I'm fine with it, it does get tiring by about 2:00 p.m., even with a lunch break. So I prefer a more modest session time-wise.
Everyone has different priorities regarding operations. Mine is having fun. But you can't have fun if engines are stalling, derailments happen everywhere, and the trackwork is lousy. This happens in HO, BTW - I've operated on some very lousy HO layouts. Scale has nothing to do with it - it may be a bit harder in N to get things "perfect" but it is imminently doable and should be the goal for someone serious about inviting people to their layout for operations.
John C.
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BTW, here's a video of one of my N-scale RS3's doing a switching move at National Carbon in Fostoria on my layout. If I didn't tell you this was in N scale, would you know?
John C.
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I think part of your introduction could be to ask what kind of trains do you like to run? Meaning, there are often two kinds of people who run model trains.
Sometimes called "roundy-round". Meaning this person just likes to put one or more trains on the track and simply turn them on and watch them run. Lots of people are like that. This is not what you will be talking about.
The other kind is "operators." They like to do switching moves. Pick up cars, drop off. Assemble trains in yards, etc. And there's lots of ways to do this.
As to possibilities, I think you should have something for everybody.
One extreme is more prototypical- this car number/car goes to THAT business. etc.
But I confess, several years ago when I had a yard module that could hold about 70 cars..... there were times when I simply made up a "yellow train". That is, I switched the yard to assemble a train with all of my yellow boxcars (Railbox, Mississippi Export, Valdosta Southern, Etc.).
I know that may sound simplistic and really dumb to some people, :facepalm: but it required switching moves. I was still picking cars out of the group. But going by colors instead of road numbers was easier to see and faster.
And I enjoyed it.
Just an example of doing what you like.
As an interesting aside, my son and I spent some time discussing my future layout. We had originally planned a large roundy-round with a good sized yard. That fit my interest. Make up trains and let 'em run.
By I recently changed with I decided to create a Chaffee Branch layout. It is point to point and NOT roundy-round at all (not my typical preference). In fact, it will be an operator's/switching layout which will follow pretty prototypical action. I look forward to telling y'all about it in future months.
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As John said, N scale doesn't lend itself to operations.
Sorry .. I said "Operations in N scale can be harder due to the physics of smaller trains." .. purely a function of size .. I run ops on my layout .. it's fun .. but it does require some extra work that the HO guys probably don't deal with as much .
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you have a standing invitation to visit the NKP in N Scale in Champaign, IL and judge for yourself.
John .. I don't doubt you .. but I would like to come visit some time .. I used to live right up the road in Rantoul .. Chanute AFB .. Did HO San Juan Central in basement of base housign ..
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the focal point of my operations is a three way junction station. The station switcher stays busy. It must switch baggage and express cars out of and into trains as well as spotting them at the baggage/express/mail building. It must switch cars out of and into freight trains, as well.
Two of the roads that run into this three way junction are prototypes the third is a fictitious short line.
I tend to keep the car sorting simple. Anything headed to the Pacific Coast gets sent to Washington where it is handed over to the Southern which will deliver it to the SP. Anything going to the Northeast gets sent to Baltimore where the B&O will take it as far as it goes on its line then hand it over to the Penn or CNJ for shuttling further north. Anything going to the midwest goes to the WM which takes it to Dickerson Run. Anything bound for points on the Penn, WM or B&O. RRs can go anywhere.
I d o not need cards or anything like that.
Another thing I do is take cars for non-modelled businesses on the short line. I do not model the shop facilities for the short line, but it gets gondolas of coal and tank cars to fuel the power.
I do not model the oil dealer or the power plant, but they get tank cars and hoppers, respectively. I simply run the train with the appropriate cars from the junction to the short line terminal where the terminal switcher drags or shoves them down the parade track. I then take them off the pike, keep them in a box for three or four operating days, then they go back empty to the junction. It does not matter which cars are going where as they would be destined for non-modelled trackage.
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Charlie,
ShipIt is an operating program that works for all scales, and the operating sessions are a lot of fun! You get a print-out that tells you where your set-outs and pick-ups are, so there are no car cards to worry about. There is a Group.io users group for it that might be helpful to get a better idea of what it does. https://groups.io/g/shipitusers/topics (https://groups.io/g/shipitusers/topics)
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John .. I don't doubt you .. but I would like to come visit some time .. I used to live right up the road in Rantoul .. Chanute AFB .. Did HO San Juan Central in basement of base housign ..
Visitors ALWAYS welcome. If you were still in Rantoul, you’d be on my regular operators list!
John C.
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And if you want some more video examples of OPs. Heres three Channels I like that do it.
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If I didn't tell you this was in N scale, would you know?
Yep. Sure would. That MT coupler slinky effect is a dead give away.
Regardless, I completely agree that there is no difference in "operations" between scales.
eja
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Charlie,
ShipIt is an operating program that works for all scales, and the operating sessions are a lot of fun! You get a print-out that tells you where your set-outs and pick-ups are, so there are no car cards to worry about. There is a Group.io users group for it that might be helpful to get a better idea of what it does. https://groups.io/g/shipitusers/topics (https://groups.io/g/shipitusers/topics)
There is a similar program in JMRI -- Operations - It's what I use to build trains .. very flexible - and free ..
https://www.jmri.org/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/operations/Operations.shtml
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I really wish my buddy Scott was more active here. He has a WONDERFUL N layout that is all about operations. And it uses, get ready... MRC 2-6-0s as the mainstay for its power.
It is a BLAST to run, and runs incredibly well.
http://www.harm-web.org/dcsrr-n
It's the standard that I aim for with my new NCR.
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it uses, get ready... MRC 2-6-0s as the mainstay for its power.
That is actually a very good locomotive, be it the MP or MRC version. The MRC does have an all wheels live tender. You must swap in a Kato or B-mann SPECTRUM tender for the MP version. Mine (MP version with swapped in B-mann SPECTRUM tender) will pull fifteen loaded MT gondolas and a MT wood caboose up a one per-cent grade at fifteen SMPH. I doubt that the prototype could have done that. On a 2,2% grade, it will do seven and a MT wood caboose. That model has very good slow speed control and good pulling power. It also is good for passenger speeds.
Thank you for the link to his pike. I see that he has some B-mann consolidateds (also a good locomotive even if early versions were try-before-you-buy). Those have good pulling power. Their slow speed control is not as good as the MP/MRC mogul. I noticed a MP/MRC eight wheeler, as well. The diesels appear to be B-mann NW-2s. Given that it is a 1950s era pike, the NW-2 as a wartime model fits. He did a nice job with those MDC/Athearn over land cars. Wood passenger cars in the 1950s fit that pike well. NYS&W was running wood cars late as was SP&S. The alteration to what is either an Athearn or MT caboose is well done and sets apart his equipment. I am trying to achieve a similar effect with my Father Nature drover caboose shells (which I use as passenger cars on mixed trains) as well as minor alterations to Arnold and B-mann boom tenders.
One thing lacking in N is a wood baggage/mail or RPO. It looks like you could bash a baggage/mail from the Athearn/MDC overland combine. You would have to add a door and mail hook mid-body. You could fashion a door or cut one from a junky MP or B-mann caboose. You could then blank out all but two or three windows in the coach section.
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One thing lacking in N is a wood baggage/mail or RPO. It looks like you could bash a baggage/mail from the Athearn/MDC overland combine. You would have to add a door and mail hook mid-body. You could fashion a door or cut one from a junky MP or B-mann caboose. You could then blank out all but two or three windows in the coach section.
I'll certainly second that . lots of these wooden cars were used into the 50s and later.
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For an introductory clinic, I think it will capture the interest of the most new people if you can emphasize the range of types of "operations" that people do in N scale, from simply switching a siding on a roundy-round to simulating the operations of a real section of a real railroad, including track arrangements, train designations, freight and passenger stops, dispatching, signaling, waybills and/or switch lists etc. I think the emphasis needs to be strongly oriented to "do what you want, and don't feel the need to do what you don't want to do." And, I think it needs to emphasize that it is not hard to "use the layout you have" for some simple ops, rather than needing to build a layout that is designed for ops from the beginning.
Getting new folks to actually experience some ops is the most addicting activity, and then they will sort themselves into their specific interests. So, I also think it would help if there is something like a T-track modular setup with maybe a 2-track staging module set up behind a scenic module with a couple of U modules connecting them at the ends, so that you could actually demonstrate an N scale train coming in, stopping, switching a car in and a car out of a siding, and going on. That starts from a roundy-round perspective and adds the simplest switching move. If you can demonstrate the uncoupling with a magnet, fine, but also use a pick, so that people can see how simple it can be. Then talk about how to make this type of activity as easy or complicated as people feel like making it, maybe with some slides or video. Engine facilities might interest a substantial number of people, too, especially turn tables, because they may have more locos than space to run them all, and loco and cab changes on through trains can also be part of "ops."
I think the actual demo with real N scale equipment that actually works smoothly will be an eye opener for a lot of the roundy-round thinkers who may come to your clinic to see what ops is about. I probably don't even have to say that any demo of ops is best done with a DCC setup. Maybe instead of having the road engine switch that car, have it just stop and break the train, and then have a local switcher make the moves with the 2 cars.
And, to really communicate your concept of using ops as a great way to establish and expand local networks of model railroaders, can you demonstrate that by inviting interested clinic attendees to do some minor ops on your demo module, maybe having the more interested ones get a chance to do some moves on one of the display layouts at the Convention, or even having one or more local MRs with layouts have open houses to which interested clinic attendees are invited at the clinic?
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this might give you some ideas
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/1999/designing-model-railroad-operations/
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I held operating sessions on my layout recently dismantled (when house was sold). My Branch line which was basically a separate railroad connecting to my main line system served industries that were switched using a simple car card system. The cards were in packets and cars coming off the branch went to the main yard where there were also card holders on the facia so that cars in different in or out bound tracks could be identified. Destinations for the cars were on the cards included empty cars that had to go to a destination to be loaded. Then the card was flipped indicating the car was to go East or West on a train going roundy- round several laps to the main yard for sorting. It worked quite well for a simplified system. Nate Goodman (Nato). Salt Lake, Utah.
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Whoa, looks like I hit a nerve. I never said that you can't run ops in N scale, only that the scale doesn't make it easy. And there's no need to be purposefully obtuse, you know exactly what I mean.
But, since I should offer constructive criticism, here's an idea: Lean towards what N scale does well. They say that in O scale you model a locomotive, in HO you model a train, and in N scale you model a right of way. So instead of switching some cars out here or there, ops is your intermodal train trying to get to port with a rock slide forcing the main line down to just one track, or an excursion steam engine running a string of cars to the yard before it has to go find water (ESU decoders have a water and fuel level you can actually check). Maybe Amtrak broke down, and you need to get helpers from NS to pull your train, and still make it to the station on time while navigating around the freight trains.
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Whoa, looks like I hit a nerve. I never said that you can't run ops in N scale, only that the scale doesn't make it easy. And there's no need to be purposefully obtuse, you know exactly what I mean.
But, since I should offer constructive criticism, here's an idea: Lean towards what N scale does well. They say that in O scale you model a locomotive, in HO you model a train, and in N scale you model a right of way. So instead of switching some cars out here or there, ops is your intermodal train trying to get to port with a rock slide forcing the main line down to just one track, or an excursion steam engine running a string of cars to the yard before it has to go find water (ESU decoders have a water and fuel level you can actually check). Maybe Amtrak broke down, and you need to get helpers from NS to pull your train, and still make it to the station on time while navigating around the freight trains.
Your post is very patronizing. You really don't seem to get it. Hit a nerve? Neah.
OPS in N scale can be done to the same level as in larger scales. You can switch individual cars on industrial spurs just as well in N scale as you can do in 0 scale. Been there, done it, can do it again. Sure, some older operators with failing eyesight might need to use bifocals and a small flashlight to read the car numbers, but that by any means is not a deterrent.
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"the scale doesn't make it easy."
If you want a quality operating railroad, it isn't easy in any scale. I've seen horrendous trackwork in HO. It's true that in HO you can "get by" with mediocre track because of the increased mass. But many HO folks refuse to power their frogs, resulting in operational issues - particularly stalling of short-wheelbase locos. This can be overcome by installing keep-alives in everything, but why not power the frogs? And while some HO locos run beautifully out of the box, many don't. So if you really want superb operation, you have to fix them. Same with N. If you read articles from the 1970's or 80's, you'll see that HO folks were preaching the same list of things for good operation as I listed for N-scale in my post above. I didn't invent anything new; I just followed the advice of high-level HO operators and applied it in N. They aren't any different, and changing poor wheelsets on an HO-scale car isn't any easier than on an N-scale one. Kadee couplers aren't any less fussy than MT couplers. I know - I've done this work on HO stuff owned by friends who operate on my N-scale layout and invariably ask me "can you get my HO stuff to run as well as your N stuff?"
And finally, N scale has one major advantage for operations: size. You can fit a lot of operating railroad in a modest room in N. Not in HO. The size advantage can be used in a variety of different ways, including more realistic scenery, or just spreading out towns so that it takes more than 5 seconds of real time to get from one to another. A prairie looks like a prairie in N; mountains look like mountains. Etc. If you're in to super-detailing equipment, then HO, or better yet, O scale is your best bet. People do it in N, but that IS extremely difficult (and then most people can't see it anyway). But for operations, it really isn't any more difficult than in HO if you don't tolerate slip-shod work. Yes, mediocre will work in HO and probably not in N. So if someone is interested in just "getting by," by all means adopt HO. But if you are meticulous, the techniques and time involved are the same in both scales, and work just as well in both scales.
I will concede that N-scale reporting numbers are harder to read . . . (yet several of my operators who are in their 70's seem to cope somehow).
John C.
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Here's a good example of why N-scale's size is a major advantage both visually and operationally if deployed correctly.
[attachimg=1]
This is a photo of *part* of the steel mill scene on my layout. Notice how the buildings absolutely dwarf the trains. If you've ever been to a real steel mill, you know that this is how it is in real life. Steel mill buildings are enormous. In fact, the buildings you see in this photo are Walters HO scale steel mill buildings (kit bashed, in the case of the oxygen furnace in the foreground), because the HO scale buildings sold by Walthers really are the correct size for . . . N scale. They are way too small for HO even though they were marketed as HO scale. My entire steel mill scene occupies a 20' long by 2' deep section of my layout, and includes two more buildings the same general size as the ones in the photo. To recreate that in HO, you'd need 40' x 4' minimum, and the top of the blast furnace might well hit the ceiling of your room. And also notice the track - there are two mainlines at the edge of the layout, then a 3-track holding yard and then all the track feeding the various mill buildings. And yet it doesn't look cramped. Yes, a real mill would have a larger holding yard, but I had to do far less selective compression on this scene than one normally would do in HO. And in O? Yeah, if you've got a 100' x 100' outbuilding with 12' ceilings for your layout, go for it.
John C.
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I decommissioned my steel mill because I didn't have the space to do it justice .. I haven't decided if I want to revisit it on fremo modules ..
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I agree that operations are possible in any scale. Sure, physics may dictate that there is a little coupler slinky effect in N scale, but that does not mean operations need to suffer.
I will add that N scale does require attention to detail when laying track and in reliable wiring. My N scale layout is designed as a large switching layout to mimic the operations and actual car capacities of customers along the Housatonic RR shortline.
This represents Specialty Minerals, in Canaan, CT. It is located on the remnants of the old CNE line. The Housatonic switches it out up to two times per day. I think N scale provides an advantage for switching operations like this, as actual car capacity and scale siding length come into play.[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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That's a very, very nice scene!
John C.
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Thanks.
The operational challenge in that Specialty Minerals scene is that the switching lead is rather short, just like on the prototype. It will only accommodate two locomotives and 8 covered hoppers. I have watched the actual plant getting switched out and can pretty well mimic the movements without compromising too much from an operational standpoint. In this respect, the switching job is fairly prototypical, regardless of scale. It is just easier to model the rail served portion of the plant in N scale with very little compression. The far side of the plant, including road access is left to the imagination, as you can't see the tracks from there.
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This represents Specialty Minerals, in Canaan, CT. It is located on the remnants of the old CNE line. The Housatonic switches it out up to two times per day. I think N scale provides an advantage for switching operations like this, as actual car capacity and scale siding length come into play. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Sorry for some thread drift, but the model of that facility?
(https://c.tenor.com/g3dPps7wm-IAAAAd/beavis-and-butt-head-boing.gif)
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Operations is just another part of the hobby of model railroading (personally, the part I like best). Even though we mostly do NTrak (although there are some personal layouts as well), and all too often, other NTrak groups have been known to spike switches to make sure they don't accidentally get thrown, we will incorporate switching into public shows. Sure, trains carry cargo from one place to another, but at some point that cargo has to have a destination, and having to have cars spotted at specific locations within a specific time makes running trains much more fun and enjoyable. NTrak isn't just about running trains in circles, but simulating how railroads are really run (in our case, in the 50's).
The most fun I have ever had was operating the PCR (Pacific Coast Region of the NMRA) John Allen (actually built by him) timesaver switching layout. It used a shay and really clunky strange, totally non-scale Baker couplers, but they worked PERFECTLY for this.
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/Timesaver.html
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Sorry for some thread drift, but the model of that facility?
(https://c.tenor.com/g3dPps7wm-IAAAAd/beavis-and-butt-head-boing.gif)
Ed,
That is far from finished. It still needs a lot of piping, and limestone dust and material piles everywhere. It is a combination of kitbashed and very recognizable N and HO scale kits, as well as scratchbuilt structures, like the gray kiln building with the curved roof.
Going back to operations, that facility can take about 15 minutes to switch loads out and empties in, if running at scale speeds and allowing time for recharging air lines, chocking wheels, etc. On the prototype, the wheeled CAT loaders act as a car mover for spotting covered hoppers for loading between switching jobs by the HRRC. I still need to add a coupler to the back of one of the wheeled loaders.
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On the prototype, the wheeled CAT loaders act as a car mover for spotting covered hoppers for loading between switching jobs by the HRRC. I still need to add a coupler to the back of one of the wheeled loaders.
You won't make it run...
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Maybe in my next life. ;)
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Good lighting is important for successful operations with any scale but is especially important with N. And REALLY especially important if you expect your operator to read car numbers. Bringing the layout up to chest height or slightly less helps too.
Otherwise I 100% agree with John Colombo's observations. It is entirely possible to successfully run loose cars ops in N scale. A zero defects mindset goes a long way to making it a reality.
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Anyone that thinks quality operations isn't possible in N simply isn't paying attention.
Dumb it down to passing siding ops in N? No way! While I'm basically doing that in Z, even then I feel like ops involving industry and yard switching is do-able to an extent. But in N, you really have the "full menu" of operations methodologies to choose from. Yes, reading numbers gets somewhat more difficult but there are plenty of ways to mitigate that.
I've operated on several N-scale layouts over the years and they are among the best. I would put Dean Ferris' OJL up against any layout in any scale. Rossford Yard has an impressive N-scale ops-focused layout too. Ole Melhouse's Dakota Northern layout (featured in numerous magazines) has a simplified ops scheme that works VERY well and is a lot of fun to op.
Some of the responses here remind me of some tired topic floated in the late 90's. Good gosh people, Kato et al squashed that stereotype 30 years ago.
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I’m fortunate to live in an area that has some regular and lively N Scale Op Sessions on very fine quality layouts.
Mud Bay & Southern and Tenino Western to name a couple and that’s to say nothing of some of the equally fine layouts in the Portland area that I’ve been lucky to frequently operate.
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I won't be responding to this thread constantly along the way but be assured I will be following it.
But one comment....
I have operated on layouts ranging from a small 2x8 foot switching railroad in N Scale to a 17 acre live steam mountain railroad. I have never had any difficulty operating on N Scale railroads but some operators from other scales might have difficulty identifying individual cars.
But I have heard people from other scales worry about operating on an N Scale layout because they don't think they will be able to read the reporting marks.
Some systems of car forwarding can mitigate that problem....tab on car or car card pockets / switch lists with a photo of the car can help operators identify what cars to pickup or delivery without having to read the road or number.
Good lighting in the layout room can also help everybody.
N Scale overall has better quality locomotives than most scales so has no inherent performance disadvantages for operations.
Nobody should limit their choice of layouts to their own scale....you can enjoy operations on any railroad and pick up good ideas no matter the scale or size of railroad. If you don't walk away from a session with a couple of good ideas to incorporate into your own railroad you need to pay more attention. Even negative things that you experience or observe can be very instructive.
I appreciate all the thoughtful responses to my query and keep them coming...I will be honing my presentation right up to the N Scale Enthusiast convention and will post the PowerPoint show including my prepared comments here as an attachment and a pdf version as well.
Thanks,
Charlie Vlk
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Hi Charlie.
One thing I do to help with the "reading the reporting numbers" issue is to make sure that most of the switching moves are done within 1' of the layout edge (and I completely agree that good lighting is a necessity; I installed two dozen track lights in my layout room just to improve the lighting for this precise reason). If the car you need to switch is only 12" away, you can get pretty darn close to it to read the number. The other thing I do is avoid cars that have tiny reporting marks (at least, I avoid using them for switching moves; I use these cars to fill up mainline trains). Most "standard size" reporting marks (e.g., numerals that are 9" or bigger on the prototype) aren't that hard to read in N scale, and should be easily doable from 12" away. Plus, the car card will identify the road name, so that limits the number of cars you have to look at. Obviously, I use multiple NKP cars in switching, but typically other roads are represented only by a single car at any one switching location. So the Fostoria local might have 16 cars total; five of which might be NKP cars, and the other 11 are likely 10 different road names and maybe one duplicate (for example, there might be 2 NYC cars for the NYC interchange track at Fostoria, but everything else will be a single car per roadname). Proper blocking of the cars helps, too. The steel mill turn usually has 6-7 open hoppers and 6-7 70-ton closed hoppers for spotting on the high line, but if these are all blocked together, whoever is running the mill job knows that all the open hoppers and 70T covered hoppers go to the high line, so you don't have to read the individual numbers for switching purposes. All you have to do is glance at the string of open hoppers and move 'em.
My yard operators have it the worst when reading car numbers, especially the west-bound yardmaster, who DOES have to read numbers from about 2' away. But it's never been a problem. I really think this is a case of fear overshadowing reality.
John C.
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I am doing a clinic at the upcoming N Scale Enthusiast Convention being held June ...
I feel that "Operations" is a great way to establish and expand a network of Model Railroaders and a great way to get new people into the Hobby of Model Railroading.
Charlie Vlk
Mt. Juliet, TN
Good luck CV! Parade the flag!!!
:D
dave
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During recent ops testing on the AC&Y I've had two 70+ yr old gentlemen give it a go. Both are experienced operators, mostly on HO layouts. One is a retired railroader. Neither had operated on an N scale layout before. Both were concerned about two things going in: Reading car numbers and uncoupling the cars.
Car numbers turned out to be a non-issue. To John's points: No car is ever more than 15" away from the layout front edge and aside from heavy AC&Y and NKP reporting marks my trains mirror his regarding the mix of road names, purely by chance. And did I mention there is PLENTY of lighting?
Uncoupling turned out to be a surprise. I showed them best practices for manual uncoupling using a pick (on my layout anyway). Neither had a bit of a problem throughout the session. In fact the retired railroader stated that he wished HO couplers worked as well.
Both left their session believing N scale ops is not only possible, it can work pretty darn well.
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I operate my home layout and I had the pleasure of operating two other N Scale layouts in just the last week. N Scale is fantastic for ops.
To Charlie’s original post. I model trains. Modeling the physical train is only half the story to me. Trains do things… they move freight to customers. To me modeling that is the other half of the equation. Spotting cars at customers, picking them up, switching blocks in yards… it’s all part of the fun!
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Charlie, Sorry a bit late to the conversation, operations have fascinated me since I got into the hobby over 50 years ago, here are my answers:
What. operations is the movement of our model trains that emulate to prototype movements.
Why. This is an awesome hobby with many levels, bench work, Laying track, electrical and scenery....Operations is something to do with the railroad once we get to a certain level of running.
Who. the hobby is full of folks that like to run operations and there are some that prefer to "orbit" and there is nothing wrong with that, I think it is important to have some easy jobs or run thru trains that the "orbiter" can run, they may see how much fun we are having. We all have a fun time TOGETHOR.
Where. The home layout is the most likely spot, but ops on a club layout or a modular layout like Freemon, or N Trak is possible just take more coordination.
When. this is up to the group, I find Saturdays are the best, our club runs on Sundays when the store its located in is closed and not open to the public. Here locally we have a group they call themselves the "old geezers" and they meet on Tuesdays about 9am have coffee/ cookies and run from 10 till about 1 or 2 on different layouts and can be home before rush hour hits.
How. Maybe this is the biggest question and depends on the type of operations and the layout. Small switching layout, logging railroad or a bigger operation like a bridge route with lots of traffic. Car forwarding, from very simple like boxcar goes to the furniture factory and the tank car goes to the refinery with no paperwork, or use the standard four cycle waybills or a computer software program ( as mentioned earlier, reading the car numbers in N scale can be difficult like tank cars!) and some of us (myself included) wearing glasses, lighting is a must. Or a tab on car system that makes reading the numbers a thing of the past.
I will remark on some of the earlier post, I do not think that operation cannot be done in N scale, many of us have proved it can be, and very well I may add. Many HO'ers that have operated on my layout make comments of a 35 car train running thru on a single track scene with high scenery to train ratio say that could NEVER do this in HO!!!!!
Can it be more work in N scale, YES. our track has to be cleaner, our cars weighted and heaven forbid our steamers must be fine tuned to the highest standard to run well. As the beginners that get into our hobby, if the trains do not run well then they can get discouraged and lose interest.
I hope this helps for your clinic at the national this year, sorry i will not make this one but hope to make Reno.
Gordon Bliss / Santa Fe-All the Way
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During recent ops testing on the AC&Y I've had two 70+ yr old gentlemen give it a go. Both are experienced operators, mostly on HO layouts. One is a retired railroader. Neither had operated on an N scale layout before. Both were concerned about two things going in: Reading car numbers and uncoupling the cars.
Car numbers turned out to be a non-issue. To John's points: No car is ever more than 15" away from the layout front edge and aside from heavy AC&Y and NKP reporting marks my trains mirror his regarding the mix of road names, purely by chance. And did I mention there is PLENTY of lighting?
Uncoupling turned out to be a surprise. I showed them best practices for manual uncoupling using a pick (on my layout anyway). Neither had a bit of a problem throughout the session. In fact the retired railroader stated that he wished HO couplers worked as well.
Both left their session believing N scale ops is not only possible, it can work pretty darn well.
Those are the exact comments we hear from seasoned operators (of all ages, but especially older ones) when they operate on my friend's layout. They are also surprised that those tiny N scale trains run better than many H0 scale layouts. That layout has smooth trackwork, and well implemented electrical wiring.
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DIGRESSION...Your Specialty Minerals looks awesome - the large building in N scale look fantastic. Question: In real-life, is Specialty Minerals shipping in those covered hoppers or receiving...or both? END DIGRESSSION.
Thanks!
Mike
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I have let an accident of construction govern my operations and even power roster. The center of operations is a junction of three lines: The Washington-Dover and Annapolis-Harrisburg lines of the Four Capitals plus the Short Creek and Nopedale. The Annapolis-Harrisburg line is operated by WM; the Washington-Dover by the B&O. The SC&N has remained independent. By an accident of construction (despite all of my measurements and planning), there is a 2,2 per-cent grade from the SC&N up to Short Creek Junction as well as on the Annapolis-Harrisburg line. A grade of that sort is not the usual for that part of the country. My choices were to pretend it ain't really that steep, or go for it and let the story be that the only real estate that could be acquired for it had a steep ridge over which the railroad had to get. I went with the second option.
For the Annapolis-Harrisburg line, there really is no problem. Passenger trains are gas--electrics or two or three cars. Freight trains are no more than five cars, so even a yard switcher can deal with those despite the grade. The challenge came for the Short Creek and Nopedale trains. I had to figure out what was going to be the longest and potentially heaviest train that would have to get up that grade. Passenger trains were of little concern. They are no more than three cars; two head end cars and a coach or three passenger cars and an express boxcar. A mggul or a ten-wheeler will get those up the grade.
The freights were going to be the challenge. They moved under diesel power I had to figure out the weight and length of various trains. I had to learn how to figure out what kind of tractive effort was needed to get the trains up that hill. I had to learn to figure out how many horses were needed to get the trains up the hill. Train lengths and weights tended to vary, so my Purchasing Department had to consider what kind of diesels it would purchase. I had to make the "purchases" believable for the era, the kind of railroad and the locale. Further, I had to consider what models ran the best and would run with each other.
The most frequent freight train needed twelve to thirteen fifty horses and just under thirty thousand pounds of tractive effort. Anything larger than an RS-1 would work. Given the era, anything up to a GP-9/RS-3/any Baldwin road switcher or cab unit/any FM cab or roadswitcher except a Trainmaster would work. What do you do with a larger train, though? The largest and heaviest train would require just over thirty five thousand pounds of tractive effort and twenty five to twenty six hundred horses. How do you deal with that?
1. You buy two roadswitchers or cab units- This might be believable if you use two FM or Baldwin cab units. As the former were maintenance hungry and the latter unreliable, it is going to be rare that one or the other is not in the shop (conveniently, neither of them is in the shop only when the train requires both of them). A short line does not have that kind of money. The SC&N already has three diesels: a Baldwin VO-1000 and a a pair of NW-2s. Those are wartime assignments. By the mid-1950s, the Baldwin has become the Short Creek Junction switcher, one of the EMDs is the Short Creek switcher and the other one is in reserve. It does not make much sense to purchase two road switchers or cab units. No railroad is going to pay to have that much power sitting. One possibility is to cut the wartime assignment to one of the yard switchers and use an RS-2 and RSC-2. One of the ALCos can work as the switcher for Short Creek, the yard switcher can work Short Creek Junction and the other ALCo can be the usual road freight power. When two locomotives are required for the train, the other ALCo just leaves Short Creek without a switcher until the train returns from the junction. The drawback to this is that spaces are tight at Halfway Hall, where cars are picked up and dropped off. The two ALCos will make extra moves necessary which take up time.;
2. You use the road switcher or cab unit and have a helper, a USRA 0-6-0, a Shay or a 2-8-0 from the very late 1800s. No railroad, especially a short line, is going to pay to keep an old steam locomotive in operation so that it can help one or two trains per week.
3. You u se a GP-9 when only one locomotive is required and add on one of the NW-2s if two are required. This is a little better, but still a bit much for the tight spaces at Halfway Hall. It does, however, give you the horses that you need (1750 from the GP-9; nine hundred from the NW-2 for a total of 2650; just barely enough.
.....but wait............maybe you are onto something:
You must look at your models for a minute. That Baldwin has a throttle response far different from your Katos or Atlas'. I am not a DCC boy. Conversely, the NW-2s are close enough to both. On the heavy days, the GP-9 or FM H-15-44 is not going to be enough before you get to the grade, but the two NW-2s will be just enough for it while it is on the relatively flat part of the railroad. The two NW-2s can work the tight spaces of Halfway Hall. Is there a rule against using the GP-9 or FM ( of course, only one or the other is actually on the "roster" at any one time) as a station/junction switcher? No. Now you have another question. How do you get the Baldwin out of Short Creek Junction and back to Short Creek, where it can work as the Short Creek switcher and the GP-9 or FM to Short Creek Junction? Railroads do not like to pay for deadhead light power moves.
There is an early afternoon fuel train that moves hoppers, gondolas and tank cars to Short Creek Junction. They all are empty. One yard switcher is enough to get it up the hill. As a rule, the GP-9 or FM is iin charge of that train, anyhow. You run the road switcher on the train. The trip back is with loaded cars, but downhill or on relatively level track. A yard switcher is enough for it. The Baldwin takes the loads back to Short Creek. The GP-9 or FM then works as the station/junction switcher. The larger freight runs at night. The two NW-2s take it to Short Creek Junction, with a stop at Halfway Hall to pick up any outgoing cars. The two NW-2s can not get that train up that hill, but the GP-9 or FM comes to help. That is more than enough tractive effort and horses to get the train up that hill. You do not want both of the NW-2s at Short Creek Junction, so they will take the night freight back. The next day, the Baldwin will run the empties on the fuel train to Short Creek Junction then resume its place as station/junction switcher. The GP-9 or FM will take the loaded fuel train back to Short Creek.
This way, the railroad is paying only for one diesel locomotive to sit: the NW-2 that is held in reserve. The power assignments are sufficient to move the trains. You have a roster that fits the railroad type, era and economics.
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DIGRESSION...Your Specialty Minerals looks awesome - the large building in N scale look fantastic. Question: In real-life, is Specialty Minerals shipping in those covered hoppers or receiving...or both? END DIGRESSSION.
Thanks!
Mike
Specialty Minerals in Canaan, CT produces a high grade dolomite limestone. It is mined in a nearby, but off-site quarry and trucked to the plant for further crushing and refinement. The large arched roof building is the kiln building. I compressed the depth of the plant a bit, but kept signature structures. They ship out product in covered hoppers, dry-bulk trailers and bagged/palletized.
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Just my $0.02, but in the ops sessions I have hosted, I have found that simpler is better, and shorter shifts are better.
My switching layout currently has 6 unique jobs, scheduled to take 30-45 minutes. You can always run a second shift if the first 45 minute schedule actually runs on time.
My operators actually prefer silence to sound. I have had two operators with one running silent, one sound. Basically, if they want to toot for crossings, use the brake sound, etc., they can, but they really don't have to and I don't stress them out making them do it.
Other simple items:
Car tabs, no road number reading. Not great for photos, but it is actually quite satisfying to see the class yard have lines of the same colored tabs, ready for taking out on the road.
Ground Throw Turnouts
Uncoupling picks, no magnets.
In most cases, one for one swaps (or two for two, block for block, etc.) On each switch list I put one industry that is a bit different than normal." For instance, on a multi spot warehouse, I have them take spots 2 and 4 instead of 1, 3, and 5 every other time out. There are a few small wrinkles, but not a switching puzzle.
No switching puzzles.
I can't imagine beginner operators want to be stressed out by really hanging by the prototype, at least based on my years of experience.