TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: rgengineoiler on January 04, 2018, 10:48:01 AM
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After reading many of the other posts about the new N Scale Athearn Challenger I must way in. I bought mine in October when they were first released but did not open and put it on the track until New Years Day because I have an acreage which keeps me busy 8 months of the year. So on the track it went and nothing happened. I am Digitrax DCC, tried to make it do something at adr. 03 and nothing. I had no lights, no movement, and then it sounded like a fast chatter and stopped. I decided to go to op's mode on the main and change the adr. to the D&RGW #3805. It just sat there , but, it was making the Steamer idling sounds so I thought there was some hope after all. Not so as I had no lighting, it would not move and it just sat there idling.
Of course it was New Years Day so fast forward to Jan. 3rd and I called Athearn Tech Support. Had to get out my test track and hook up an MRC Transformer and test it on DC for the Athearn tech. It would move forward skipping some and just a Chuff or two with on and off sound. He then had me run it in reverse fast and slow and it had no chuff's at all, but I did have lighting. Of course today I am packing it up and sending it in to Athearn. Remember, Murphy is still doing his thing these days and teaching all of us about patience. Good Grief! Better go out and bring in some fire wood. It's going to be a long wait so I'll fire up some of my Bachmann's and enjoy those sound steamers on the layout. DR
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...I sure understand about that acreage stuff.
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Sorry to hear about your issues, although it seems you're certainly not alone... :(
Perhaps Athearn needs to remember the old saying: "K-I-S-S".
Mark in Oregon
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Hope you don't plan on seeing it again any time soon. They have had mine since Mid November and have not heard a word from them.
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again, it seems I am the odd man out - got mine earlier this week, tested it on my DC layout - ran the 4 scale miles with absolutely no problem - very slow on DC - but still gorgeous - and sounds great -
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again, it seems I am the odd man out - got mine earlier this week, tested it on my DC layout - ran the 4 scale miles with absolutely no problem - very slow on DC - but still gorgeous - and sounds great -
You probably already know this, but just so it's clear to anyone who wonders... these run slow on DC because you are running a DCC
engine on DC (like the one I have here). So it has to get up to about 10.5 volts just to get over the decoder voltage drop and turn on the motor.
Are you planning to only run it on DC? They do make a DCC "ready" version of it without the decoder. You can also bypass the decoder with some jumper wires in the plug inside the tender.
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You probably already know this, but just so it's clear to anyone who wonders... these run slow on DC because you are running a DCC
engine on DC (like the one I have here). So it has to get up to about 10.5 volts just to get over the decoder voltage drop and turn on the motor.
Are you planning to only run it on DC? They do make a DCC "ready" version of it without the decoder. You can also bypass the decoder with some jumper wires in the plug inside the tender.
Yes, I did know that DCC sound takes a bunch to get it started - but I have the old Athearn Challenger with the remote controller that was a bit faster - new version looks great, sounds great, runs great - Plans to convert just my main line to DCC at some point (with a toggle to back to analog) so I can run the few of the sound equipped engines - one of these days - Thanks for the info Max.
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Just an update; The Challenger has arrived in Long Beach California and yes, I am aware that it could be months before I get it back. As my new Challenger has a new Digitraxx Tsunami decoder in it, I was wondering if there are issues with the design of the Tsunami for this model. I purchased this model from M.B. Klein and I noticed this week that they have a new run of Challengers and they are all equipped with LokSound DCC instead of Soundtraxx Tsunami. Interesting for sure and the price for the LokSound installed models has risen $47.00 each. You don't hear anything from Athearn but I do wish they would be more transparent on the subject. DR :RUEffinKiddingMe::
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Athearn went from MRC, to Soundtraxx, to ESU decoders. I think that more and more model companies are starting to realize which are the top quality (and functionality) decoder manufacturers. Europeans have it all over Americans. Too bad that QSI (American manufactuer) no longer makes small decoders. Those were excellent (both features, and sound quality).
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Are we sure that Athearn went with ESU LokSound decoders in their new Challengers? Athearn's website says that they all still have Tsunami's, although they do list their HO Challengers as having ESU decoders. Maybe MBK simply has a copy/paste error in their N scale listings?
I bought one from the most recent production run, but it was one of the DCC-Ready versions so I can't check myself.
Thanks,
-Mark
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Are we sure that Athearn went with ESU LokSound decoders in their new Challengers?
That was the claim when the latest production run was announced:
http://www.athearn.com/newsletter/012717/10_N-scale_Z-8_Challenger_012717.pdf (http://www.athearn.com/newsletter/012717/10_N-scale_Z-8_Challenger_012717.pdf)
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Maybe somebody out there who has one could do a quick read on CV8. Soundtraxx is 141 and ESU is 151.
Thanks,
-Mark
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Maybe somebody out there who has one could do a quick read on CV8. Soundtraxx is 141 and ESU is 151.
Thanks,
-Mark
I wanna say mine came back as a soundtraxx when I programed it. I'll check later today. I'm at work for another 2 hours.....
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Ok, just read mine, it came back as a soundtraxx.
Manufacture ID 141
Manufactual version no. 64
[attachimg=1]
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Thanks, Mike.
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Athearn customer service confirms that the latest production run is using a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder, rather than an ESU as originally advertised.
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Well then, I hope they install a brand new Tsunami in my repair because I am sure mine was toast. I sent it back to Athearn, signature required to be sure they received it but have not heard from them about the repair. It never moved at all and no lights in DCC. DR
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I have a total of five Big Boys and Challengers from previous runs with a mixture of ESU and Tsunami decoders and I have had no trouble with any of them. I bought 4014 with an oil tender from the latest run and expected no problems with it. I ran it for two hours forward and backward and it ran flawlessly as expected. So I did the same modifications I have done to all the others, I replaced the factory speaker with a sugar cube and close coupled the tender because it was too far away. I ran it for another two hours with no problem, then the rear engine locked up. Since I had the engine for less than a week, I didn't feel that I had to tear the engine apart to fix it so I got an RMA and sent it to Athearn. I got the same engine (I know because it was close coupled) back and it ran perfectly.
But now the sound was messed up and did not perform properly, so back to Athearn it went again. This time they had it longer and when I got it back it was a new engine, not the one I sent in. This one I ran for three hours in each direction and it ran like it should. I am now going to put a sugar cube in it and repeat the breakin runs. Then close couple the tender and break it in again, hopefully I will now have an engine just like its' brothers.
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If this happens to anyone else, look for the following (based on what I found with the one I had here).
It is pretty easy for parts of the valve gear to get bent inward and jam on the crankpins of the drivers.
When only one engine truck jams like that, really look for this. A crankpin might be pressed hard against one of the other rods, which will jam the whole thing solid, but leave the other truck free.
If it happens to anyone else, may I suggest posting some close-up photos in here so I (we) can see if that's what is happening. Fixing it is quite easy. A little careful bending of the offending valve gear part outward will keep it from jamming.
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If this happens to anyone else, look for the following (based on what I found with the one I had here).
It is pretty easy for parts of the valve gear to get bent inward and jam on the crankpins of the drivers.
When only one engine truck jams like that, really look for this. A crankpin might be pressed hard against one of the other rods, which will jam the whole thing solid, but leave the other truck free.
If it happens to anyone else, may I suggest posting some close-up photos in here so I (we) can see if that's what is happening. Fixing it is quite easy. A little careful bending of the offending valve gear part outward will keep it from jamming.
Didn't you also discover another problem where the universal coupling was slipping out of the flywheel? Also, it the valve gear was jamming then both engines would be stuck (since they run from a single motor). If only one engine is "jammed" or frozen when the other one still runs, then the slipped universal is the most likely cause, no?
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Peteski, Yes. Two problems.
I had the joint coupling slip out of its cup because they were spaced too far apart, which allows one truck to run and the other to be unpowered, so although on its back, on truck would run, the unpowered one would just try to slide along the track, so on the track it couldn't run.
And I experienced a second issue (which I may have even caused while fixing on it)... where the crankpin jammed.
Good point.
If you seem to have a jam, flip the engine on its back and try it with clip leads. If one truck runs and the other doesn't, then it's probably the U-joint.
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Question for Marty; How long did your repair take with Athearn? DR
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Question for Marty; How long did your repair take with Athearn? DR
The first time it was about three weeks. The second time was much longer, I think about two months. I can't be sure because I had a stroke. All I know is the engine was here when I got home. I'll see if the new engine runs better. The sound is rather anemic with the factory speaker. :)
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I sent my new SP&S Challenger to Athearn the second week of Nov and am still waiting to get it back :-(
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I'm betting with all the problems we have with our group that the warranty issues on the whole lot is creating quite the back log for servicing
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Is there any online info for the MRC decoders in the first Challengers? I'm used to ESU and the tons of documentation online for them, so maybe Athearn or MRC has the like for this loco? I'd like to see all the possibilities for the MRC decoder.
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Athearn went from MRC, to Soundtraxx, to ESU decoders. I think that more and more model companies are starting to realize which are the top quality (and functionality) decoder manufacturers. Europeans have it all over Americans. Too bad that QSI (American manufactuer) no longer makes small decoders. Those were excellent (both features, and sound quality).
In steam sound I think the Tsunami 2 still has the edge over the other decoders. We replaced the QSI decoder in the Walthers Y3 by a Tsunami 2 and that was a big improvement over the QSI both in running qualities and in sound.
Marc
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I Called Athearn Tuesday and was informed that they are waiting for parts that are expected in three to four weeks. What a discouraging state of affairs when you spend $360.00 and get nothing right out of the box! DR
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This is totally unacceptable. I am in the same boat as yourself, still waiting months for my Challenger to return from Warranty Repair. It is unacceptable that they did not commission a sufficient supply of spare parts now with 2 runs already being delivered. I am extremely frustrated with Athearn right now. I'm out close to $800 with nothing to show for it. My first engine was RMA'd to the (usually) reliable E-Tailer I purchased it from. Tracking shows it was delivered but I've still not been issued a credit after 2+ months and I have been unsuccessful in getting him to call me back. The second is still at Athearn for repairs so for my $800 expenditure I have nothing but a hole in my wallet to stare at.
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I wonder how many others are out there with these same issues that you never hear about? I think Athearn needs to hire new qualified QC and QA supervisors because this is not helping there reputation at all. So far I am out $360.00 but for you way over double. I am still in shock I guess, over the whole thing. I can only work on the layout normally about five months of each year. I have an acreage that keeps me very busy the rest of the time so I hope they get my Challenger repaired and back to me before April. DR
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There are probably a lot of disappointed customers that we don't hear about. That's the nature of consumerism.
A lot of angry, dissatisfied customers don't say anything. They just grumble and never buy from the seller again.
It's also possible that a lot of the bad engines have been repaired by their owners or by friends of their owners
(like the one that came to me to fix up).
This is why some modelers just suck it up and fix engines themselves instead of sending them in. It isn't right or fair, but it's totally understandable.
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Note to all. I understand the OP was regarding Challenger problem and it has migrated to discussing time for repair completion to actually questioning Athearn's QC. I totally agree with Max's comments in last post but I may be more harsh if given a chance. Athearn QC isn't that an oxymoron??
I want to expand this to the new Big Boy when I purchased one plain, no DCC at all. It would not run. So as Max suggests I decided to find the problem myself as I want to install an ESU with the largest speaker/enclosure that I can find. I'll show what the problem just might be,do ya think. I have an offer for a $35 repair job. Whoopee !!!
This first image is in the tender and you can see were the employee melted part of the plastic and applied two large gloobs of solder so they were touching. I think I can say 'direct short'. I took my #11 blade and cut a clearance between the two :
(http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?media/dsc06522.131623/full&d=1518125844)
This second image is what I found after I removed the boiler shell. No M2 wire. It looks like it was soldered at one time but no wire. Comment: I did not pull it off, there was no loose wire period. I suspect that if I sent it to Athearn their repair person could/would do a better job for me.
(http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?media/dsc06524.131624/full&d=1518125879)
I suppose that I will, as Max says, suck it up and attempt to repair it myself. Hell, I can't mess it up much worse. Any suggestions? I was hoping they might produce an n scale MT4, but I won't be spending money with Athearn in the future without some major changes on their part.
On the slim positive side, I guess I could take the guts out of it, beat it up and weather it some and model the UP train that towed it from California to Cheyenne.
As always have fun,
Carl
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Yea, the days of German ladies precisely assembling N scale model locomotive, taking lots of pride in their work, are long gone. (Yes I know that this is not a model from a German company, but even those German companies no longer assemble their models in Germany). Nowadays it is all about lowest price and quantity, not quality. Kato is a rare exception (with their still-in-Japan assembled models). I know that this is not a fair comparison because Kato designs their models to minimize wiring nnd soldered connections). But where they have soldered connection, those are done neatly and cleanly.
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Well, as to that M2 wire, I can tell you having been inside the Challenger that the solution there is straightforward.
There should be another wire going from the other motor terminal to that M2 pad (analogous to the M1 wire).
You will need to get the circuit board out in order to get down to the motor so you can solder the missing wire to its terminal. Generally, I had to unsolder all the wires from the board (there were headlight and other wires),
and then I could get the board off. That will expose the motor enough that you can probably solder a wire to its terminal without actually removing the motor.
Then you thread the wires back up through the opening in the circuit board as you put it back into place, and resolder all the wires to their respective pads on the board.
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There are probably a lot of disappointed customers that we don't hear about. That's the nature of consumerism.
A lot of angry, dissatisfied customers don't say anything. They just grumble and never buy from the seller again.
It's also possible that a lot of the bad engines have been repaired by their owners or by friends of their owners
(like the one that came to me to fix up).
This is why some modelers just suck it up and fix engines themselves instead of sending them in. It isn't right or fair, but it's totally understandable.
Several years ago when I was with state government taking customer service training they told us you only hear from about 5% of your dissatisfied customers.
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Max, I am planning to do that as soon as I finish an on the bench project.
Peteski, what worries me is that our modern society, as a whole, seems to more and more accept mediocrity. I guess I contribute to that.
Carl
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I was able to make contact with the entailer that sold me the original loco. He had a death in the family which led to the delay in the refund. What is worse Horizon refused to take the unit back and are making him send it for repair. Remember that this unit was DOA out of the box with the same issue as the original poster. Unbelievable. I am done with Athearn. For that matter, unless someone does the NCL, I am done buying N Scale as well. My layout is pretty much complete and does not need any more locomotive power. With the poor quality of what is coming out, why bother. I'm spending my train money now on vintage postwar Lionel that I can work on myself and still runs 50-70 yrs after it was made.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Max, I am planning to do that as soon as I finish an on the bench project.
Peteski, what worries me is that our modern society, as a whole, seems to more and more accept mediocrity. I guess I contribute to that.
Carl
As I see it, using that silly phrase, the paradigm has shifted. Regardless of how much we complain to the manufacturers about the product quality, nothing will change. Outsourcing their production offshore (and going to the low bidder to maximize profit and still keep the prices reasonable) is the reason for the poor quality. Only in extreme examples (like the unusable out-of-the-box GHB PRR L1 brass loco) the model will be re-run. In less extreme examples, companies will look the other way, while attempting to pacify unhappy customers,. But the quality will not improve.
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From the little I know, Athearn customer service is pretty good for their HO scale models. Perhaps N scale is too much bother... :facepalm:
Otto K.
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You know, I started this thread just to complain some because I had always wanted a Challenger for my mostly operational layout. I have been working on scenery the last two years but when these came out I decided, "why not". I surmise this was destined to be a "Murphy decision", to say the least. After looking at the pictures above, I believe my loco would probably look the same inside but I did not want to void the warranty. I guess time will tell and at my age I do have patience for a time. I am not a wealthy individual but I do want to spend money wisely. I would rather pay a percentage more and not have issues like this. If Athearn is trying to keep the price down with manufacturing work like this, they will lose a customer base that will not return because of the quality. I sent my model in using FedEx signature delivery to be sure there were no mistakes. That was not cheap either and just adds to the value of this issue. I do appreciate all your replies to this issue and it educates me on the subject. DR
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They designed a good engine (the Challenger), but they don't have good follow-through to make sure the assembly and QA are done well. And from the delays in repairs, some owing to getting parts, they have completely failed in the support of these engines. They should not be waiting for parts from China. That should have been part of their deal - a supply of parts delivered with the engines.
The soldering on the Challenger I fixed was nothing short of terrible. Wires snaggling everywhere, not well-routed, not held down. The two very fine (almost like wire wrap wire) leads to the headlight were just loose and coiled and bent all over the place, just begging to become a failure point. I fixed a first-gen Challenger a few years ago, and the assembly was very different. The wires on that circuit board were neatly looped and pressed down flat in groups, with small, neat solder joints.
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They designed a good engine (the Challenger), but they don't have good follow-through to make sure the assembly and QA are done well.
Forgive the pun, I think the design itself is the cause of all these challenges.
The mechanism is ok, and overall when assembled correctly, it is a very good engine. But the way everything comes together is such a nightmare that even a good QC team can easily miss things.
For example and comparison, removing the Athearn centipede tender shell is a multi-step in order procedure and involves removing multiple screws and extra parts in specific directions/orientations.
The Kato centipede tender shell pops right off just like any regular boxcar shell. Even with the extra details included on Athearn's tender, there's still no reason it had to be so complicated. :facepalm:
I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot. I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues. In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.
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I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot. I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues. In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.
I highly suspect that Athearn has that models both, designed and manufactured in China, unlike Kato where design is done in Japan by very skilled and clever engineers. As I analyze construction of all my N scale models I clearly see the differences between Japanese and Chinese (designed and manufactured) models. I'm not trying to put down China - I'm just stating the obvious. I suspect the the cultural differences are partially at play here. Japanese are know to put lots of pride in their work (and self-punish themselves if they fail to achieve their goals), while I suspect that in the Communist China, there is less incentive to consistently try to do your best.
I base this opinion on my own experiences living in Communist Poland back in the 70's. We got paid the same, regardless of how much effort we put into our work. There was no "official" unemployment since every individual of labor-age had to have a job. So most just gave their minimum effort while performing our jobs. Things made locally was poor-quality. Cars, appliances, models, etc. While I realize that China is not quite the same what Poland used to be 50 years ago, I suspect that there are many similarities.
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Forgive the pun, I think the design itself is the cause of all these challenges.
The mechanism is ok, and overall when assembled correctly, it is a very good engine. But the way everything comes together is such a nightmare that even a good QC team can easily miss things.
For example and comparison, removing the Athearn centipede tender shell is a multi-step in order procedure and involves removing multiple screws and extra parts in specific directions/orientations.
The Kato centipede tender shell pops right off just like any regular boxcar shell. Even with the extra details included on Athearn's tender, there's still no reason it had to be so complicated. :facepalm:
I think it's a case of shooting themselves in the foot. I do applaud their customer service, they've always worked with me to correct issues. In my opinion it's the product development team that need improvement.
Point well taken, sir. Yes, a more robiust "Kato like" design would make it far less likely to induce wiring and other sloppy assembly mistakes. A good design can make it much more impossible to put something together the wrong way, or to leave a part or connection out. The Challenger design is not in Kato's "Mikado" league by any stretch.
The main point I was trying to make was that there has been a decline in their assembly quality from the first run to the current one, and I think it's showing up in higher failure rates. The first one could easily have had all these failures if the assembly and QC had been just as sloppy, since the design and parts layout was almost identical.
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I'm spending my train money now on vintage postwar Lionel that I can work on myself and still runs 50-70 yrs after it was made.
Thanks,
Kevin
...and parts are (still) always available; go figure....
Mark in Oregon
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...and parts are (still) always available; go figure....
Mark in Oregon
OEM parts, or reproductions?
Also remember that these toys were made way before the limited-run with reservations business model used today.
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Both original and reproduction parts are out there and Athearn can't dig up parts for something made 3 months ago that has had numerous runs. When I spoke to the etailer I purchased my original unit from, he said the recent run of Big-Boys and Challengers had been somewhat of a nightmare for him to the point he may drop Athearn completely.
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Both original and reproduction parts are out there and Athearn can't dig up parts for something made 3 months ago that has had numerous runs. When I spoke to the etailer I purchased my original unit from, he said the recent run of Big-Boys and Challengers had been somewhat of a nightmare for him to the point he may drop Athearn completely.
Unfortunately we live in the world of limited-runs, advanced-reservations and production outsourced to China.
From what I heard from the industry insiders is that Chinese manufacturers have the American companies by the short-and-curlys. The Chinese companies dictate how many spare parts they will manufacture for the run (if they provide any spare parts at all). This scenario might not be the same for all the companies, but it seems to be pretty common amongst manufacturers.
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That is correct Peteski. Not only that the manufacturers "own" the molds. So you have no negotiating powers to take YOUR mold elsewhere for better pricing or better quality. Their concept is they made the molds so it's their property even though you paid them to make it! Any IP brought into the country belongs to the government.
(BTW Petski, it was nice meeting you at Amherst. I wished I had more time to chat with you but I was busy all over the place!)
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(BTW Petski, it was nice meeting you at Amherst. I wished I had more time to chat with you but I was busy all over the place!)
It was nice meeting you too MK. Yes, the Amherst show is very hectic, but still lots of fun.
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That is correct Peteski. Not only that the manufacturers "own" the molds. So you have no negotiating powers to take YOUR mold elsewhere for better pricing or better quality. Their concept is they made the molds so it's their property____
Welcome to the world of who has it owns it. Offshoring work is only as valuable as your skill at getting it back.
Next they will be making available models at 1/8th the price, the way B***man and co started doing 40 years ago. Ask Airfix UK about outsourcing to Hong Kong in the 70's. Same issues...
dave
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Yesterday, March 6th finally got an email reply from Athearn. Supposed to be another 3 weeks for the parts to come in. They even said they would email me when it is being shipped back to me. Another words, shut up and wait! But I guess that is progress. I bet the CEO still got his or her's bonus for last years sales. Waiting for a slow container ship to arrive is not good business. I'm wondering if the parts are even made yet. This is what happens when a good company is sold to another huge conglomerate. It is all on the spread sheet. Waiting! DR
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Yep, still waiting for the Challenger I sent back in October to return from Athearn service. They promised it back in Dec. I’ve had it. They are on my boycot list. Been spending my model railroad budget on postwar Lionel and having a blast. I’ve picked up 3 locos for the price of the challenger. The one I received broken I was able to fix for $4 myself. This has soured me on NScale locomotives for the forseeable future.
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I bought one of the very first Challengers (a Clinchfield) which unfortunately had large-flange wheels on the tender, pilot and trailing trucks (the drivers were fine). I know at one time Athearn offered replacements, but at the time I had a Peco Code 55 layout, and the Challenger ran just fine on that track because of it's design.
When I built my new layout with Atlas Code 55, of course, the Challenger would no longer run, hitting all the molded spike heads with the larger-flange wheels. I wrote and e-mailed Athearn about new wheels. Never heard back. Wrote and e-mailed a second time after the new run came out, figuring that NOW they would have wheels available. Never heard back. Finally, I just took the wheels out, chucked each axle in a drill, and filed down the flanges myself. It took a while and some experimenting with the flange profile, but now the Challenger runs just fine on my layout. Unfortunately, this process took most of the plating off the wheels (which are brass base metal, it appears), but it doesn't seem to have affected electrical pickup.
But it should not have been up to me to do this. Atlas and Kato both keep parts supplies for their engines. Wheels, motors, frame halves, etc. Micro-trains sells parts for their rolling stock. Even Bachmann keeps parts, although they are often sold out of the stuff you need.
I have one Challenger and one Big Boy. I've converted both to ESU LokSound, and both run extremely well. But I'll never buy another Athearn product given my experience. Life's too short.
John C.
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And if you try calling them....nobody every picks up! :RUEffinKiddingMe:
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I bought one of the very first Challengers (a Clinchfield) which unfortunately had large-flange wheels on the tender, pilot and trailing trucks (the drivers were fine). I know at one time Athearn offered replacements, but at the time I had a Peco Code 55 layout, and the Challenger ran just fine on that track because of it's design.
When I built my new layout with Atlas Code 55, of course, the Challenger would no longer run, hitting all the molded spike heads with the larger-flange wheels. I wrote and e-mailed Athearn about new wheels. Never heard back. Wrote and e-mailed a second time after the new run came out, figuring that NOW they would have wheels available. Never heard back. Finally, I just took the wheels out, chucked each axle in a drill, and filed down the flanges myself. It took a while and some experimenting with the flange profile, but now the Challenger runs just fine on my layout. Unfortunately, this process took most of the plating off the wheels (which are brass base metal, it appears), but it doesn't seem to have affected electrical pickup.
But it should not have been up to me to do this. Atlas and Kato both keep parts supplies for their engines. Wheels, motors, frame halves, etc. Micro-trains sells parts for their rolling stock. Even Bachmann keeps parts, although they are often sold out of the stuff you need.
I have one Challenger and one Big Boy. I've converted both to ESU LokSound, and both run extremely well. But I'll never buy another Athearn product given my experience. Life's too short.
John C.
John, if you are game for it, you can use a Caswell plating kit to replate nickel on to those wheels. It only costs about $40 for the kit and it works surprisingly well.
http://www.caswellplating.com/electroplating-anodizing/brush-plating-products/plug-n-plate-kits/plug-n-plate-nickel-kit.html
I even use it to replate nickel onto my soldering iron tips when they start to get pitted. I was surprised at how well the plating holds up on such a harsh application, but I'd say that the tips last at least another 6 months before I have to replate them,
and a soldering iron tip lives a hard life compared to tender wheels.
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OK everybody, I Got a call from Alex at Athearn in California today, April 4th, and said they were sorry the repair was taking so long and offered a new Athearn freight car of my choice for now. A nice offer but I have probably 225 freight cars of all types or more and don't need any. He also said that the factory was re-designing the gearbox on the Challenger (China) with no estimated date for the parts to be shipped. That info made sense to me because when I placed the Challenger on the track for the first time it made a very loud grinding noise and it was finished. I think what bothers me most is that it is paid for, it is April, my winter time working on the layout is mostly over and my acreage is calling loud and clear. Murphy has always been with me. Doug :RUEffinKiddingMe:
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As frustrating as this is, I think they need to do this. Remember this picture (below). I'd wager that the grinding you heard was that spider ball spinning and chewing at the cup that it wasn't seated in. They need to fit a slightly longer coupling in there so that the whole thing stays together.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/3/2667-261217151209.jpeg)
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Many Thanks for the picture and explanation. Sure makes sense on the noise I heard. I did not want to mess with it and ruin my warranty and why should a buyer have to. I suppose I won't get it back until next fall. Doug
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Unfreaking Real!! Almost 6 months after I send them my engine back and they can’t even estimate when I get it back. Anyone want to lay odds on a year? I really regret not just returning the second one as well and spending that $400 elsewhere. I’m tempted to call and complain to get them to send me a free car. At least I could EBay it and recover something.
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I’m tempted to call and complain to get them to send me a free car.
Good luck with that.
On the other hand, the Consumer Protection Act is your friend. I think many others would agree, 6 months and counting fails to be a repair in a reasonable amount of time. If you want your $400 back, go get it (Athearn then keeps the Challenger of course).
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So you suggest that I file a claim with the FTC?
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No, not yet at least. First, call/email, perhaps even send notarized/certified letter if you feel the need, and let them know that you're not satisfied with the product or warrant service and would like your full purchase amount refunded. After that, one of three things will happen.
1. Your repaired Challenger, or a brand new one, will arrive next week.
2. You get your full refund.
3. Two weeks go by with nothing, and then you file the claim.
Unfortunately, my father had to do this after the fourth unsuccessful repair attempt on our first run MRC Challenger. A brand new Tsunami Challenger arrived the following week, though we did have to concede a little and now live with coal fired 3958 instead of oil fired 3985. :| Given the real 3985 was operation back then, and completely sold out, we can't fully blame Athearn for that part. Especially after the long back and forth, we're just happy to have an operational unit.
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Thanks Mark, I think I'll give that a try. One issue I am concerned about is that though I had the mechanical issue that has been discussed with the 1rst Challenger, my 2nd had an electrical issue (that Athearn was also aware of) and that if they fix the electrical issue without addressing the gearbox issue then I'll wind up waiting another 6 months to a year to get THAT fixed. At the very, very, least I am going to insist that along with my electrical issue, they apply the gearbox fix to my loco as well. If they refuse then I will request a refund and if they refuse that, file with the FTC.
thanks for your help,
Kevin
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Well, I also was trying to out think myself in that, if I accepted the free freight car, then am I committed to wait forever for the repair and can not file with the FTC. Not sure if that could be true but I did think it odd that Athearn would call now and tell me this, when I have been stalled by them for three months and others much more time (6mo's) waiting and wondering. Alex was really pushing me to choose a freight car and I at the time was in a hurry for stuff I had to do so I just told him I would think about it. Well, I've thought about it. I don't need another freight car. I need a perfectly operating 4-6-6-4 Rio Grande # 3805 N Scale Steamer. Doug
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I called on Weds asking about how things were going with my challenger, He called me back today. The gentleman I talked to, I think Alex, was his name, said they are fighting with the factory in China on getting the redesigned gearboxes manufactured. He said, once they were able to get the parts, it wouldn't be too terribly long until they got them fixed. I guess they obviously have quite the back log of challengers that need to be fixed. Sounded like they are extremely unhappy with their factory, I wouldn't be surprised if a new factory for them might be in the near future.
he offered me the free freight car also. I decided to take a 50' PS1 in NP. I told him that it's just model trains, and as long as I get a properly working locomotive back, and it doesn't take a year to get it back, I was ok with it. It sucks that it is like this, but this is the reality of China manufacturing these days.
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Sounded like they are extremely unhappy with their factory, I wouldn't be surprised if a new factory for them might be in the near future.
Do they really have choice to go elsewhere? I thought that after some mergers there were only couple model RR manufacturers in China. And they are probably kept pretty busy by the companies they are already manufacturing for.
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Oh to be a fly on the wall and hear what's going on between Athearn and the Chinese factory. From what I saw in there, this problem did not look that hard to fix and shouldn't need a whole new gearbox - just a change in the coupling and some neater wiring procedures. I wish they would explain in detail what's wrong and what parts are needed. I think after people plunked down $400+, they deserve a more thorough explanation. "It needs a new gearbox" sounds like the sort of explanation you get from a car mechanic when they don't want to give out too many details.
I wonder how long it would really take a tech at Athearn to just fix what's there instead of using an all-new gearbox. Even with hundreds of them to fix, think about it. If you could fix 2 each day, that's 40/month (just working 20 work days). That's 240 in 6 months. And that's just one person doing it.
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Well, here I go again. It is May 17th and my Challenger has been in for repair since January 8th when Athearn received it and checked it in. Out side of offering me a free freight car, (REALLY!), I have heard nothing after that. June 8th will be six months and nothing. I know others have been waiting longer but patience on my part is at an all time low. They have my Money, my Challenger, and I will not quit this thread until Athearn makes things right for all of us who are affected. It may be summer and I am busy on the acreage until late October but I think about this every day. Why should any of us have to go through a situation such as this. Come on Atheran, Talk to your purchasers, keep us all informed about your crap manufacturer in China. Maybe we all should charge Athearn interest on the use of our money. Come on Athearn, DO SOMETHING!!! Doug
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I agree and feel bad for all you folks. I wonder if anyone has done anything more than waiting, like file complaints with the BBB, credit card company, state Attorney General, etc. I can understand a few weeks but a few months? And it's not a cheap item too.
Can you imagine this happening in any other industries? You take your car into service and they are keeping it for a few months. Or you bought a new refrigerator and it's sitting there in your kitchen not working for months. Or you booked a flight and each time you showed up at the airport, it's overbooked...for the 10th time. Etc.
Keep us posted.
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Well, here I go again. It is May 17th and my Challenger has been in for repair since January 8th when Athearn received it and checked it in. Out side of offering me a free freight car, (REALLY!), I have heard nothing after that. June 8th will be six months and nothing. I know others have been waiting longer but patience on my part is at an all time low. They have my Money, my Challenger, and I will not quit this thread until Athearn makes things right for all of us who are affected. It may be summer and I am busy on the acreage until late October but I think about this every day. Why should any of us have to go through a situation such as this. Come on Atheran, Talk to your purchasers, keep us all informed about your crap manufacturer in China. Maybe we all should charge Athearn interest on the use of our money. Come on Athearn, DO SOMETHING!!! Doug
Well I, for one, don't mind you keeping us updated on this. I am glad you are doing it. Do you have the option to tell them to just forget the whole thing and demand your money back?
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I had two problems with my Big Boy 4014 from the latest batch. First, the second truck locked up tight. I sent it in for that and got it back fairly quickly, it was the same engine. Second time the sound was really messed up, this time it took a couple months and I got a new engine and I have about 15 hours track time with no problems. The problems this batch has had will probably make Athearn gun shy of making any more articulateds in N. Is that a good thing?
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The problems this batch has had will probably make Athearn gun shy of making any more articulateds in N. Is that a good thing?
How about finding another contractor to manufacture the next batch? It seems like it is a quality problem with the manufacturing, not a design flaw.
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How about finding another contractor to manufacture the next batch? It seems like it is a quality problem with the manufacturing, not a design flaw.
There aren't that many companies that make model trains in China, at least that is what I understand. What if Athearn already uses the best? And if they choose to go to another country, which one? And if they did that it would have to start from scratch because China would probably keep the molds.
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There aren't that many companies that make model trains in China, at least that is what I understand. What if Athearn already uses the best? And if they choose to go to another country, which one? And if they did that it would have to start from scratch because China would probably keep the molds.
My point was that Athearn shouldn't be gun-shy considering producing the next run. There should be options available. All the models designed and assembled in China have some design and production quality issues. But it seems that some are really bad. Remember the BLI sound decoder which kept blowing up? BLI issued a recall. Even Scale Trains' Big Blow is not totally problem free. But none of these problems are so bad that there would be no solution.
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My point was that Athearn shouldn't be gun-shy considering producing the next run. There should be options available. All the models designed and assembled in China have some design and production quality issues. But it seems that some are really bad. Remember the BLI sound decoder which kept blowing up? BLI issued a recall. Even Scale Trains' Big Blow is not totally problem free. But none of these problems are so bad that there would be no solution.
I am just concerned that Athearn getting a lot of returns may make them reconsider doing any more. There is an out of pocket expense for them on every return and that can eventually make the cost more than the profit. And that could affect future models. They will do what they can to satisfy existing sales. N scale steam is always more difficult than diesels, articulateds especially so.
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Thanks for the support. I'm going to wait until June 8th and then get into it with them. Enough is enough by then at six months. Back to the Acreage. Doug
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I am just concerned that Athearn getting a lot of returns may make them reconsider doing any more. There is an out of pocket expense for them on every return and that can eventually make the cost more than the profit. And that could affect future models. They will do what they can to satisfy existing sales. N scale steam is always more difficult than diesels, articulateds especially so.
Such is life with finely detailed products that they produce..
I'm sure they have the same issues in HO as in N.. Part of the reason they cost $4-500 each.. but 6 months is excessive on repair time..
Thanks for the support. I'm going to wait until June 8th and then get into it with them. Enough is enough by then at six months. Back to the Acreage. Doug
Try to be civil about it... ~Ian
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The only thing civil that Athearn deserves at this point is a class action lawsuit. This is a disgrace.
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The only thing civil that Athearn deserves at this point is a class action lawsuit. This is a disgrace.
Really? Aren't we a little quick to sue? Doesn't a class action suit need a large number of plaintiffs? Do we know how many purchasers of this model had a problem with it?
This is the problem with this country - everybody wants to sue at a drop of a hat. You rally think that a class action lawsuit (if it is even a an option) will solve anything?
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But Peteski, do you have $500 of your own money tied up in a product that you can't use and currently somewhere else, for months, with no resolution in sight? To a lot of people, $500 is a lot of money.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
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But Peteski, do you have $500 of your own money tied up in a product that you can't use and currently somewhere else, for months, with no resolution in sight? To a lot of people, $500 is a lot of money.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
I understand, but have they exhausted all the possible steps to get their money refunded (assuming that his is their goal)? I think a lawsuit should be the absolute last ditch effort.
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I said it is what they deserve, though I doubt it will come to that. They have shafted a large number of people with the latest runs and the people who purchased the defective units certainly deserve something for what we have been through. They have had my engine, and my money for 7 months with no foreseeable resolution and I have a second engine with the issue Nick outlined. It is a completely and totally unacceptable. They have done this with no acknowledgement or communication of the problem or possible resolution. You can compare this with Lionel who has also screwed the pooch recently with some of their recent releases. They at least have acknowledged their issues and been forthcoming about how they are going to take care of their customers
The issues with the last run of BigBoys should have been an indication of systemic problems but they ignored them. I really don't care if Athearn ever produces another NScale Locomotive again. I surely will not trust them again. If they exit the business, and a market exists for the products they have produced, someone else will take it on and perhaps do a better job of it. In that way we all benefit. We should not be so desperate for a particular product that we will accept any crap offered. It hurts not only the modellers but the retailers who have to handle the increasing number of returns and refunds they have to handle. For smaller shops this can be a major burden.
A bit bitter, perhaps, but I have about 800 reasons to be so.
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...everybody wants to sue at a drop of a hat. You really think that a class action lawsuit (if it is even a an option) will solve anything?
And no one thinks of the side effects of such a lawsuit. :facepalm:
But Peteski, do you have $500 of your own money tied up in a product that you can't use and currently somewhere else, for months, with no resolution in sight? To a lot of people, $500 is a lot of money.
Side effect number 2, we all get a nice 30% tagged onto MSRP on all new products, from all manufacturers. A form of insurance against a now precedent class-action suit. $500 is a lot, $650 is a lot more.
Side effect number 1 of course is the manufacturer just calling it quits.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
I've wore those shoes with my first run Challenger. I know how bad it sucks. But think how bad it sucks for Athearn. I guarantee they hate being in this situation almost as much as you do. (Let's be fair, they are still profiting). But from everything we can gather, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place with the factories in China. The longer they hold on to warranty service products, the less margin they see in profits, so it really is in their best interest to finish service as fast as possible. Sadly that's hard to do when they apparently don't have necessary stock of parts.
*That being said, perhaps if they brought their distribution model into the new millennium and quit snubbing some of the better online retailers, they could increase their production numbers and margins enough to fully resource their warranty program without these huge delays.* :facepalm:
They have had my engine, and my money for 7 months with no foreseeable resolution and I have a second engine with the issue Nick outlined. It is a completely and totally unacceptable.
I really don't care if Athearn ever produces another NScale Locomotive again.
Again, I get the frustration. I would have driven to their doorstep to demand answers after 6 months. But I just can't see any benefit from pushing any manufacturer toward the exit. You might say Athearn deserves it. But they're not the only ones watching.
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Fool me once, fool me twice....
Consumers are not there to keep the company in business, the company is there to keep itself in business by making products that consumers will continue to buy. There are many events and signs that will eventually cause a law suit to be filed against a company and unfortunately many companies either don't notice them or chose to ignore them thinking they are too big to fall (as one example). By the time a law suit is filed, one doesn't really care about the company's long term existance or its side effects. It has gone beyond the peaceful resolution point.
And if a manufacturer decides to quit because no one is buying their products, how can that be blamed on the consumers? They didn't have products that the consumer wants for one or a multitude of reasons. Take a look at Sears, Toys R Us, etc.
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And if a manufacturer decides to quit because no one is buying their products, how can that be blamed on the consumers? They didn't have products that the consumer wants for one or a multitude of reasons. Take a look at Sears, Toys R Us, etc.
Demise of the above companies had nothing to do with faulty or poor-quality products, or even lawsuits. We are mixing apples and kumquats here.
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Sears and Toys R Us is simply the death of the LHS on a global scale.
~Ian
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Sears and Toys R Us is simply the death of the LHS on a global scale.
~Ian
Yes, goodbye Sears, Woolworth, K-Mart, and many others, and hello Amazon, eBay, Wayfair, and many other giant online retailers. The paradigm has shifted. People (especially those pesky Millennials) love to stay home, order online and have their items delivered to them (by drones eventually). I sure hope that retail stores (especially grocery stores/supermarkets) remain here for the remainder of my life - I actually enjoy food shopping and squeezing my fruit, and maybe even discovering some new product or two while walking the isles. Online shopping is dull and boring, but (at least for now) the prices are good. :D
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Demise of the above companies had nothing to do with faulty or poor-quality products, or even lawsuits. We are mixing apples and kumquats here.
I disagree. Companies survive because customers keep coming back to purchase things. Basically they have what you want/need and they sell it at a better price or better quality than the other guy. Whether a)they don't have what you need or b)they sell crap (and who needs crap?), the outcome will be the same. Customers will no longer come back and this can cause a vicous spiral leading to the demise of companies if they don't change their ways.
Customers not coming back is the bottom line regardless of cause, of which lack of qaulity is one of them (amongst many).
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Sears failed because it never really got a handle on successful online marketing, not because of any faulty product, Craftsman tools and Kenmore appliances being two examples of quality products. If you had a Craftsman tool and it failed, Sears would replace it for free no matter how old it was.
There are still some open Sears stores, but the one closest to me is closed along with (I think) all the K-Mart stores they bought. Management was old school and never really understood the Amazon style of selling. Shopping malls are not as busy as they once were because shopping online from your computer is easier. Major companies are closing their doors not because they have inferior products but because people shop from home now.
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If you had a Craftsman tool and it failed, Sears would replace it for free no matter how old it was.
Well, towards the end they got very sketchy on the definition of a "tool" friend of mine took some 50 year old C clamps in for replacement , was told clamps were not a tool and they promptly told him to leave the store.. (likely because he was not quite so civil about his approach).
And the removal of local Craftsman vendors (Sears stores) ends your ability to excersize your lifetime warranty.
~Ian
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Craftsman tools and Kenmore appliances being two examples of quality products. If you had a Craftsman tool and it failed, Sears would replace it for free no matter how old it was.
For the last 10 years Craftsman made very sub par tools. When they diminished the tool quality they also changed the warranty. They stopped replacing the tools, they would only repair broken compentents. If they did have to repair, they replaced the tool with a ‘refurbished’ tool. You could see the damage marks from the previous owner. Horrible system. They also stopped holding their employees to any standard that would be called customer service. Sears died because of poor decisions. They tried to ride a name that used to have value. Consumers responded accordingly.
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Whoopee!!! It may turn out to be a Good Morning. Just received an email from Athearn stating that my Challenger is shipping back via FedEx. They did not include a tracking number so I don't know about expected delivery time. The invoice states that they replaced a defective motor, tested and runs OK. My layout is covered for the summer but when I can I'll fire up my test track and check it out after it is delivered. Sure hope that some of the other repairs will be on the delivery schedule soon for all of us that have been waiting. This has taken patience to a much higher level for sure. Doug :)
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Re-reading your initial post in this thread it seems to me that there was more wrong with your model than just the motor.
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Stay Cool -- Run Diesels!! (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTngynbZTGJINeUpq3ncur_4kFID7FGVEF5TrUfMSydLnE5G9Bn)
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Stay Cool -- Run Diesels!! (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTngynbZTGJINeUpq3ncur_4kFID7FGVEF5TrUfMSydLnE5G9Bn)
Especially modern diesels, they have a/c units in them.
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I agree with you. Some where in the middle of this thread they had told me that the issue was the gear box and they were redesigning it in China. Now they say it was a bad motor and replaced it and runs ok. I just hope the issue is repaired and it will run for a long time. It's early this morning and got to get out to the acreage now. Happy Memorial Day to all. I am a vet and wish all others the best. Doug
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I agree with you. Some where in the middle of this thread they had told me that the issue was the gear box and they were redesigning it in China. Now they say it was a bad motor and replaced it and runs ok. I just hope the issue is repaired and it will run for a long time. It's early this morning and got to get out to the acreage now. Happy Memorial Day to all. I am a vet and wish all others the best. Doug
Happy Memorial Day and thank you for serving our country.
I also hope your cops are plentiful. Farming is a hard work. It is nice to to know that a farmer is participating in this forum. I'm constantly surprised about the wide range of professionals connected by a common hobby.
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Well after just after 7 months, my long lost SP&S Challenger returned home. Though rather irritated by the long..... delay I will admit it does run well enough. The sound is a bit messed up as the whistle is rather inaudible. A few tweemks of the CV's should put that to rights. I hope Athearn learned a lesson on this on. I'll not pre-order another loco from them, will definitely wait for the reviews.
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It's time to put my thread to bed. I received my D&RGW by FedEx on May 31, 2018. Put it on the test track Thursday evening, changed it's number to 3805, picked the whistle I wanted and it runs smoooth and true. This is the first time it moved since I bought it. In the fall I'll make some CV adjustments and for me, my six month ordeal is over. This took patience for all of us that went through this to a new level for sure. Thanks to all of you who gave advise and idea's through it. Thanks to the Admin's for keeping the thread alive to it's end. Doug :D
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I thought I'd put in an update on my other Athearn Challenger that died in January with the stalled front engine.. After the mess with my SP&S challenger I was hesitant to send it in to Athearn, pay $40 per hour for out of warranty service and then wait God only knows how long to get it back. I decided to take the plunge and open it up and see if I could fix it. Using the info I'd read online I suspected that the front universal joint had slipped out of the cup on the flywheel. I was able to gently move the circuit board off to one side without having to unsolder all the connections and found that this indeed was the case. I reconnected the Universal joint and all was well. On other thing I did discover when I took the engine apart was that the weight under the forward steam chest had detached itself from the shell and had been riding on the flywheel (there had only apparently been a spec of glue holding in in place. There was a fair amount of brass dust from the flywheel about and the weight had a nice groove cut into it from the flywheel.
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I thought I'd put in an update on my other Athearn Challenger that died in January with the stalled front engine.. After the mess with my SP&S challenger I was hesitant to send it in to Athearn, pay $40 per hour for out of warranty service and then wait God only knows how long to get it back. I decided to take the plunge and open it up and see if I could fix it. Using the info I'd read online I suspected that the front universal joint had slipped out of the cup on the flywheel. I was able to gently move the circuit board off to one side without having to unsolder all the connections and found that this indeed was the case. I reconnected the Universal joint and all was well. On other thing I did discover when I took the engine apart was that the weight under the forward steam chest had detached itself from the shell and had been riding on the flywheel (there had only apparently been a spec of glue holding in in place. There was a fair amount of brass dust from the flywheel about and the weight had a nice groove cut into it from the flywheel.
Glad to hear that you took the plunge, dove into the model, and fixed the problems yourself. While you shouldn't have to do this, it cost you nothing, and actually made you a better modeler (you acquired steam loco repair as an new skill). Too bad that the models appear to have quality problems.
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@kverdon I'm happy to hear that you fixed your Challenger. My only word of caution would be to beware that the U-joint coupling will probably pop out again. It is too short, which is why it came out on you in the first place. If it happens again, try to find a little washer to put down in the hole in the flywheel. You might need more than one. Then, when you put the coupling back in, it will stick out a little further and when you get it snapped back into the cup on the other end, it won't be able to pop out any more.
This takes a deft hand. You can get that coupling out, put the washers in and put the coupling back in... all without dropping out the whole engine truck and doing more involved disassembly, but it's game of inches (actually... fractions of an inch). You need to get it just close enough that you can angle things up and then gently snap/force it back in without breaking anything. Too loose (too far apart) and you have what you have now --- it will come apart on its own. Too tight (too close... i.e. too many washers) and you won't be able to get the part back in.
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Thanks Mmagliaro, it was mostly your info that put me on the track. I understand that it can pop out again but it’s an easy fix now I know how. The engine runs on a passenger train (Porland Rose) that only runs twice per operating cycle so it should last a while. Hope they incorporated your fix in the new redesign.
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Digging up a zombie post here....
I FINALLY got my Challenger back from Athearns. It seems to run better, and seems to be a little closer to prototypical speeds now. Pulling wise, On my Kato Unitrak loop, it pulled 23 MT 40' box cars, with an Atlas Caboose, but did struggle a little in the corners. I'll get a better test over the next few weeks. MRNS is set up at the Washington State History Museum again this year for their train show, so I should be able to get some testing done, with broader curves. Stay tuned.
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So what's the total from beginning to end time again?
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I sent it off back in the middle of February.
I got it back on Wednesday, which was 12/12.
So it was gone for about 11 months :-/
Also, I never got the PS1 boxcar they were suppose to send as a "Sorry it's taking so long" compensation. Oh well....
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WOW! Just WOW! :o
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I sent it off back in the middle of February.
I got it back on Wednesday, which was 12/12.
So it was gone for about 11 months :-/
Also, I never got the PS1 boxcar they were suppose to send as a "Sorry it's taking so long" compensation. Oh well....
For 11 months the should have given you a spare Challenger and free dental .
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To be fair guys, it was "only" ten months :facepalm:
Otto
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Hello everyone; I'm always busy so not around much but I couldn't believe that my thread about my Challenger and others is still news when another model was finally returned to the rightful owner after close to a year. I refused their PS-1 boxcar and am glad I did. What they, "Athearn", have done has almost destroyed my faith in large Corp's taking over other companies and at times shrugging their shoulders about how the owner of their product feels after spending a Challengers amount of money. I just hope there are not others out there that are still waiting for return of the Challenger or have forgotten about it after so much time. Time heals but in this case time gets a black eye for Athearn. Doug