TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: lock4244 on September 23, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
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Was wondering what the consensus is for body mounting on MTL boxcars with metal frames... specifically whether or not one needs to tap the pre-existing mounting hole on the frame? Can the MTL tapping tool thread the frame without being ruined? Would rather not ruin a tap if I can avoid it. TIA.
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That's what taps are for. :?
The MTL metal frames are pretty soft. Just use some oil and back out to clear the debris a few times and there shouldn't be a problem. And FWIW, a broken tap works just as well as long as there's enough thread. I use my broken tap more than my good one.
Jason
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The holes in the metal underframes need to be tapped. The Micro-Trains tap and drill set works well. Just be sure not to turn the tap too far into the underframe hole at one time. A couple or three turns at a time depending on resistance felt, then backing the tap out to remove metal flakes from the hole, always works for me.
Hmm... I always use a
1/4" drill...
(http://bayouline.com/o2.gif)
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So pretty much the same as the Rigid threader here at work... gentle and lots of lube, pull it out often to keep it clean. Got it. Thanks guys.
That's what she said... giggidy
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So pretty much the same as XXXXXXXXXX.. gentle and lots of lube, pull it out often to keep it clean. Got it. Thanks guys.
That's what she said... giggidy
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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I drill a hole between the 2 half drilled holes , tap , then mount 1015s in 2004 snap boxes . What a PIA and expensive .
MTL used to sell me by phone the 2004 boxes at a cheaper than complete coupler cost . My last batch cost the same as near a hole dang 2004 . When bought in volume of 100 or 200 this stinks . Lately I haven't converted rolling stock do to cost , unless it is a project car or loco I am working on .
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When I did body mounting, I just screwed on coupler boxes without tapping. My guess is that the metal underframe is softer than the screws I used.
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I'm the king of broken taps because I continue to do it incorrectly...plenty of oil...subtle, small turns, then back out...the metal frames DO NEED to be tapped for body mounting.
Bruce
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When I body mounted (um, underframe mounted :) ) couplers on bunch of older Atlas boxcars (with plastic frames) I made a jig to properly locate the hole, drilled #61 hole then tapped it (yes even in plastic - I'm just that way). :D
But even before I drilled the hole I first flued a styrene (0.020" I think) spacer. That is because I used 1023/1025 couplers, because they have a much smaller (and more prototypical looking) coupler box.
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When I did body mounting, I just screwed on coupler boxes without tapping. My guess is that the metal underframe is softer than the screws I used.
Add a little CA to the screw on the top, and you are done ..
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I drill a hole between the 2 half drilled holes , tap , then mount 1015s in 2004 snap boxes . What a PIA and expensive .
MTL used to sell me by phone the 2004 boxes at a cheaper than complete coupler cost . My last batch cost the same as near a hole dang 2004 . When bought in volume of 100 or 200 this stinks . Lately I haven't converted rolling stock do to cost , unless it is a project car or loco I am working on .
Richie,
Use the inner holes and #1016 couplers/boxes and flat head screws. That puts the end of the coupler box even with the end of the car, unlike #1015 couplers that extend outward when used in the front holes (which were designed for #1023/25 and 1027).
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If you have older underframes, especially the 40 and 50 ft boxcars, you may find a few where the hole is too big to tap. Apparently the tooling was worn at some time. In that case, you can use a 00-90 bolt and put a nut on top. I had to do that with several of mine.
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Richie,
Use the inner holes and #1016 couplers/boxes and flat head screws. That puts the end of the coupler box even with the end of the car, unlike #1015 couplers that extend outward when used in the front holes (which were designed for #1023/25 and 1027).
Hmmm , sounds like I will have to look into that , thanks . I already use 3/16 brass FH screws as the snap boxes have just enough meat to counter sink . I use a #62 drill , and never use oil , and rarely snap a tap and utter crap . That's a rap !
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Bryan: The outer holes don't really work for the 1023/25 couplers either. They were designed specifically for the 1027 and nothing else. I used them on my 100+ conversions, but the 1025s stick out too far.
Both the 1015 and 1025 are designed for a mounting hole 0.125 inches from the end, and the vertical height is only 0.004 inches different, so I consider the two interchangeable. There is room to drill a new hole between the two existing ones if desired. I did that on my MT tank cars, and if the plastic doesn't break while drilling and tapping the metal boxcar frames shouldn't.
If MT ever has to rework the tooling for the boxcar underframes it would be very easy for them to lower the cars and move the mounting holes. Then, regardless of the other issues with the bodies, they would at least ride at the right height and have body mounted couplers. That right there would be a big visual improvement.
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I used to do what Richie does and drill a new hole in between the two existing holes. Now, I just use #1016 in the inner holes, as the front of the 1016 is flush with the ends of the body. I've done this with reefers and boxcars, so I assume it works with the other body styles.
I think the more appropriate statement is that the #1027 was designed to fit the existing holes in the floor. The coupler pad design on the floors has been unchanged since 1972. And in the early years, Kadee sold replacement floors with #1023 couplers mounted to refit the rolling stock of other manufacturers.
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The general rule of thumb for using taps is 1/4 of cut in reverse to break chips until full thread is reached. aAnd yes Peter, it is still a good idea to drill and tap plastic so the threads are clean and not made of displaced material (instead of cut). The displaced plastic will not form into the root of the thread of the screw and will leave less thread engagement and will not withstand as much tourqe, miniscule though it is for a 00-90 screw.
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Since we are talking about taps...
Why does a tap set come with two additional drill bits?
I get that the smaller bit is to drill out the hole before you tap, but the larger one? Why would you need to use that?
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Since we are talking about taps...
Why does a tap set come with two additional drill bits?
I get that the smaller bit is to drill out the hole before you tap, but the larger one? Why would you need to use that?
Clearance drill.
As an example, if you wanted to cut off the couplers from a MT truck and mount them to the under frame, use the clearance drill so the screw goes through the coupler pocket and then only tap the under frame.
Jason
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Clearance drill.
As an example, if you wanted to cut off the couplers from a MT truck and mount them to the under frame, use the clearance drill so the screw goes through the coupler pocket and then only tap the under frame.
Jason
Ah, so it has nothing to do with the actual tapping process, right?
I think that's where I was getting hung up. Thanks!
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Clearance drill.
As an example, if you wanted to cut off the couplers from a MT truck and mount them to the under frame, use the clearance drill...
I think cutting the couplers off the trucks in order to body mount them is a bad idea. The coupler box is very wide, so it limits how far the truck wheels can travel from side to side. If you have sharp radius curves, the wheels will hit the sides of the coupler box and might cause a derailment. Ask me how I know this.
Hmm... I'm afraid to
ask...
(http://bayouline.com/o2.gif)
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Cutting the coupler box off and mounting it works as long as you're not running the cars on 9¾" radius. And they don't look bad, once they are screwed in place and the front locking tabs are cut off.
(http://www.bbussey.net/rr/0711_SSW1.jpg)
(http://www.bbussey.net/rr/0711_SSW2.jpg)
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Bryan: I still have some of those KD conversion floors in their original packaging. Never got around to using them because drilling and tapping plastic floors was just too simple.
I've also used the cut-off couplers as body mounts, but as Kisatchie says, one needs to be careful doing it. On the plus side, once the thing is screwed on, the box can be trimmed a lot. In particular, the latches on the bottom can go, which may help in some cases of axle interference. The sides can also be trimmed, as long as the coupler guide holes aren't damaged.
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I've BM'd one MTL boxcar, and did it with 1015's in the outer hole... I see what you mean Bryan, it looks goofy. I've a few 1027's laying around and will have to install them. One thing I'm not interested in doing at present is drilling new holes... it's a bit of a rigermorole to do them at work where we have an over sized (for N scale) drill press.
And I snapped the tip off my tap :(
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Mike, 1027s are too bulky and (unfortunately) compensate for the high ride height. You're better off with 1016s in the inner holes, which beats drilling a new hole between the two existing holes to accommodate 1015s. Using 1015/1016 gives some leeway in lowering the model to a better ride height also.
A lot of people use the 1016 to simulate extended draft gear. I don't like the look of it since the sides are open. But hidden under the floor, they work well. Rather — they work better than the 1015s. the coupler neck is too long in my opinion, but it looks better than a portion of the 1015 coupler box sticking out.
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Dang, I've no 1016's kicking around.
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Dang, I've no 1016's kicking around.
In a way, you're lucky. The coupler pockets on #1015s and #1016s don't extend all the way to the end of the coupler box. As a result, the couplers can swing WAAAAY to the sides. If you back up some cars equipped with #1015s/1016s, the couplers can swing to the sides so that the two joined couplers are at 90 degrees to each other. It looks horrible.
Hmm... so does Kiz...
(http://bayouline.com/o2.gif)
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Now Dee, that wasn't nice!
One of the reasons I still prefer the 1025, in spite of it not being available in bulk, is that it backs well. As Kiz said, the 1015s tend to buckle under pressure. That, and I've been using the 1025s for so long I can practically assemble them with my eyes closed...
Having bought 500 pair of 1025 coupler boxes a couple years ago all I do is take the truck mounted couplers apart and move the coupler into the new box. Yes, they stick out, just like the 1015s, but the end of the 1025 box doesn't look quite as out of place, and it's a lot cheaper than buying new couplers. In 2012 the cost was $15.00 per hundred boxes, or 50 pair, plus shipping.