TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: mecgp7 on August 14, 2013, 05:39:42 AM
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Those that now have one, are they glued together like previous locos and cabeese?
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Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
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Windows appear to be glued, everything else seems to have avoided it.
Oh, and the hood is too wide by an inch :trollface:
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Windows appear to be glued, everything else seems to have avoided it.
Oh, and the hood is too wide by an inch :trollface:
How dare they! I was on the fence about this engine but now that I know about that inch.... :facepalm:
I wonder if there is something that can be used to soften the glue like that CA debonder? I never tried it because of the fear of it etching the glazing. At least there is hope in that the Atlas cabs will be available at some point. Still, I would like to try not to screw it up in the first place! But since the hood is an inch too wide I guess the whole point is moot anyway! :P
Scott Lupia
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I am going to safely assume the same glue was used on these windows as the NE Caboose windows, its hit or miss to remove. Sometimes they come out easy, sometimes you leave half the window behind. :facepalm:
The S.
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I was wondering about this too. I built my hammerhead RS3 on their model and it was a PITA to work on because it doesn't disassemble! I guess I'll have to take the plunge on one of these now that I know I can take it apart and dress it in a fireball :D
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How about plopping the shell in the freezer overnight before trying to remove the windows?
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Sometimes they use a blob of glue rather than a continuous amount- might be worth someone looking closely at it. the glue on the On30 windows was pretty easy to deal with, but the parts are much larger and there is more space inside the cabs.
The freezer idea is worth a try too, and prying when it is cold.
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Now I admittedly know nothing about this but would putting the shell in the freezer make the glazing brittle and more prone to fracture? Worthy of a try though!
Scott lupia
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Scott freezing the part does exactly that.The main thing is to work on the shell when it is fresh from the freezer.
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Hmm, interesting. I am looking forward to trying this. As my beer is located in the fridge and my shell will be in the freezer, this is a no brainer for me. :D
Kidding aside, I am definitely going to try the freezer method. I damaged the cab window glass in the Railroad Model Craftsman DL&W F7 article because of the glue. Would have loved to have had the freezer trick back then... Of course, can't get replacement glazing from Bachmann!
scott lupia
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Kidding aside, I am definitely going to try the freezer method.
Don't get your hopes up to high. :|
This is one of those urban myths type of methods. IIRC, some genius modeler thought that if they would wet the model (hoping that some water gets between the glued parts), and the model is frozen, the freezing (and expanding) water would pop the glue joints. Then, just like most things you see in the Interwebz, the method morphed into "dry freezing". No water to freeze and pop the glue joints. Now we have increase in brittleness of the plastic given as the reason for being able to unglue the parts. Personally I don't know what is the increase of brittleness of ABS plastic going from 70 to 0 degrees F, but I don't think it is all that much.
But of course, try it and see if any of this works for you. Of course you might also experience a false positive: the parts do pop apart easily after being frozen. But it is possible that those same parts might have also been easily separated at the room temperature. :trollface: I'll be interested in your results (assuming that you tried and couldn't separate the parts at the room temperature).
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Water expands 15% when frozen, so the idea has merit as some level. Anyone who lives with freeze-thaw knows the power of ice to fracture materials.
I was actually thinking this might also work more in terms of differential contraction of the materials involved.
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How about plopping the shell in the freezer overnight before trying to remove the windows?
Maybe this would also shrink the hood width by that 1" that is the deal breaker :D
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I popped my 44T glass out with a knife blade.
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I popped my 44T glass out with a knife blade.
.. as did I.....
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Scott , everyone knows that the differential refraction % to contrasting materials, given ambient temperature of a Westinghouse refrig filled with Coors Light, is pretty much equal to room temperature cranial rectal inversion friction, taking into effect a hair loss varience of course, of about +/- 3.5 %. Well within metric parameters for blade use.
Just use a blade mate. We can discuss further at the D man's when I come up the first week in Sept. See you then.
Water expands 15% when frozen, so the idea has merit as some level. Anyone who lives with freeze-thaw knows the power of ice to fracture materials.
I was actually thinking this might also work more in terms of differential contraction of the materials involved.
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Oh no, there is more than one Scott on TRW! :D
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Never tried the feezer method with water just put the offending item in the freezer for 8 hours.Then work it while it is still ice cold.By the way Peteski this urban myth has been working for me for over 10 years now.YMMV.
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Never tried the feezer method with water just put the offending item in the freezer for 8 hours.Then work it while it is still ice cold.By the way Peteski this urban myth has been working for me for over 10 years now.YMMV.
Sure it works. But did you first try (and fail) to spearate the parts at a room temperature? :trollface: But it is good to know that it works (at least for you).
As far as the water expansion goes (I know that it was me, not you who mentioned it), sure, it expands when it freezes. But how will it find its way into a glue joint in the first place. Iif the glue joint is solid enough that it is not possible to disassemble, it will not allow water to get in either.
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As far as the water expansion goes (I know that it was me, not you who mentioned it), sure, it expands when it freezes. But how will it find its way into a glue joint in the first place. Iif the glue joint is solid enough that it is not possible to disassemble, it will not allow water to get in either.
Seems to me the only chance the water freezing would work was if the glue joint was bad to begin with,in which case other methods would most likly be as sucessful in braking the joints so we do agree on that point.Depending on how much glue was used.I have a Walthers building that has a solid bead of glue running the length of every joint even the windows.Fortunately it was a very clean build but the building will never be modified.
Sometimes you just can't win. :(
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Water expands 15% when frozen, so the idea has merit as some level. Anyone who lives with freeze-thaw knows the power of ice to fracture materials.
I was actually thinking this might also work more in terms of differential contraction of the materials involved.
So, if we're looking for thermal based differential expansion/contraction, then my oxi-aceteline torch out to do the trick!
Oh, wait.
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Comment Removed.
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What about frame compatibility with other shells like Life Like SW8/9/1200?
I'd buy some to DCC some SW units.
~Ian
It would be a major pain in the arse. The boxes and tanks on the underside are cast as part of the frame. The S4 cab area is filled with the frame and would require some serious grinding. You could make it work, but these are so light as it is that it wouldn't be feasible. Better to stick with the LL mech and TCS Z2 decoder.
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Mine just arrived today... I'm at a loss to understand why there is a problem with the glazing. Yes, it may be quite thick, but fits very well in the window openings and is flush with the carbody, surely as good or better than other RTR product of my experience. To me, not worth the work of replacement.
The only puzzlement I have is why they included Rapido couplers in the package. I thought they stopped doing that with the second run of Centennials. Anyway, I definitely agree - if there's a mod that needs to happen, it's MTL Z-scale couplers. The honkin' stock couplers draw the eye too much.
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Sort of a stray but I would have bought a couple of these if they came in yellow/black w/o lettering like the NW2 and the GE's.
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I would have bought a P&LE S4 if it was a P&LE S4.
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I would have bought a P&LE S4 if it was a P&LE S4.
An explaination for this comment is appreciated...........
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An explaination for this comment is appreciated...........
The scheme they used is a fantasy scheme. The correct one looks like this:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5ZuhibVvbbs/UDKvylVaQcI/AAAAAAAAIvY/x5taOklVATU/s800/ples4%2520001.jpg)
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P&LE was heavy around here and in fact 2 P&LE photos I found were taken just a few miles from me. So while an S4 is too new for me I would still love to have one.
Some real links:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple8633s.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple8639s.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple8649s.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple8664s.jpg
This is a P&LE S4 when built:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r2IDrGdo1JQ/UB32OMvq5yI/AAAAAAAAIrQ/0oR_Pfdm6xo/s800/YS%2526T060%2520001.jpg)
And this is a few years later with "radio" added, shortly after they were all sold:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5ZuhibVvbbs/UDKvylVaQcI/AAAAAAAAIvY/x5taOklVATU/s800/ples4%2520001.jpg)
Photo of them in Cleveland after they were sold. All P&LE S4's were sold in 1966:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ple/ple9735s.jpg
Here is a Howard Fogg post card of the Lake Erie & Eastern (a shortline of the P&LE) showing an S4:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SL76XN-uJCs/Rmht47vKpSI/AAAAAAAAAig/S2eh3ebR4rY/s800/EL%2526E%2520at%2520Brier%2520Hill.jpg)
Here is another Howard Fogg painting where he got creative with the paint scheme. He is also known to paint P&LE geeps in schemes that never happened:
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n255/Chris333_33/PLEfoob001.jpg)
Here is the Bachmann model:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/ztna9.tft5b/v/vspfiles/photos/BAC-63153-2.jpg?1376127645
Bachmann's research has to be based solely on that one painting.
Later around 1977-1979 P&LE started large yellow letters (in a different font) on the hoods of their SW1500's
So for me to buy the P&LE S4 would be the same as buying one with Donald Duck on the side. I think the model looks good enough, but the scheme is all wrong. :|
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I would have bought a P&LE S4 if it was a P&LE S4.
Chris you're missing out on one fine running locomotive...
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Michael,
Sorry man no offense.
Here is how Atlas handled it:
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hos2s4/0507/10000037_TQ.jpg
Hey look I found Bachmann's next geep:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-W28XtXT7qGo/UhADoKkZr7I/AAAAAAAAJ8s/TOHIYjGz1lk/s800/20111128451_PLE.jpg)
:lol:
People at MicroTrains be like "FAIL"
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Michael,
Sorry man no offense.
Here is how Atlas handled it:
No offense taken! :)
I held my nose when I ordered it cos of the scheme.
But really for the price of loco and how it operates... The effort to repaint it may be a consideration.
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No offense taken! :)
I held my nose when I ordered it cos of the scheme.
But really for the price of loco and how it operates... The effort to repaint it may be a consideration.
Are decals available?
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Are decals available?
That's a good question. I haven't looked myself.
I buy first and ask questions later. :D
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Now isn"t that something.....
Having started work at Rapido, my "mentors" Bill and Dan have repeatedly warned me that "restored units, illustrations, artwork and other non period images" are potential traps about 15 times.... so I now fell I have to ad Christmas cards and greeting cards to that list...................
Such a hard lesson to learn...............
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Are decals available?
I fudge the P&LE with either the Microscale NYCS Steam or one of the two passenger car sets that are available. They ain't exact, in fact, they are more off than the one inch on the hood, but they are not that far off.
If you can remove the red oval herald and the huge lettering without damaging the base coat, you are way ahead of the game as the color is correct. The photographs show them after they were quite beat up, thus the Pacemaker Green does not show as well as it did when they were new. They had 539 prime movers, which were extremely reliable, so they did not get major shoppings often. They did not require repainting in 1957, as the only NYCS yard goats that had lightning stripes were twenty-seven FMs H-12-44s, class DES-17, and the IHB units, which had a lightning stripe scheme that was quite different from the rest of the NYCS.
B-mann DOES sell a GP-7. Funny though, they painted it black lightning stripe and lettered it NEW YORK CENTRAL SYSTEM . The only GP-7s of which I am aware that had lettering even remotely like that on the NYCS were Peoria and Eastern's. The difference is that the road number went on the short hood because the P&Es had the P&E herald on the cab. The number on the B-mann does not correspond to a P&E GP-7, either. B-mann does not seem to like doing its HW on NYCS power.
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Would something like this work?.....
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1263/NYC_PLE.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/160195/title/nyc-ple/cat/1263)
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If I recall correctly, Howard Fogg was the official sales artist for ALCO. The schemes in the paintings are most likely proposed paint schemes, meant to sell locomotives to the railroad in question, rather than complete fantasy. Railroads often had their own ideas of how they wanted them painted. There was a book on his ALCO paintings published many years ago.
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Oh no, there is more than one Scott on TRW! :D
SORRY....what happens when Mr. Merlot comes to visit and stays for the evening !! LOL
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Hmm, interesting. I am looking forward to trying this. As my beer is located in the fridge and my shell will be in the freezer, this is a no brainer for me. :D
Kidding aside, I am definitely going to try the freezer method. I damaged the cab window glass in the Railroad Model Craftsman DL&W F7 article because of the glue. Would have loved to have had the freezer trick back then... Of course, can't get replacement glazing from Bachmann!
Scott , everyone knows that the differential refraction % to contrasting materials, given ambient temperature of a Westinghouse refrig filled with Coors Light, is pretty much equal to room temperature cranial rectal inversion friction, taking into effect a hair loss varience of course, of about +/- 3.5 %. Well within metric parameters for blade use.
Just use a blade mate. We can discuss further at the D man's when I come up the first week in Sept. See you then.
scott lupia
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FYI I just remove the windows from the S-4 by gently pushing out he windows with a toothpick. :)
Judd Barton
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So for me to buy the P&LE S4 would be the same as buying one with Donald Duck on the side. I think the model looks good enough, but the scheme is all wrong.
"Hey buddy ... got a brand-new 2014 Lexus here, loaded, sell it to you legally for $2000. Interested?"
"EEEWWWWW!!! It's orange with a silver stripe! NO WAY!!!"
I don't understand the mindset behind ignoring a version of any N locomotive that has been done once (or never) before, but now with up-to-date electronics, great running ability, excellent details, and a reasonable price because "EEEWWWWWW!!! It's the wrong color!" I see this over and over again in N scale, with locos, cars, whatever.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY SELL MODEL PAINT AND DECALS? I could see if this was the "old days" when you had to trial-and-error mix and match paints to get your color, plus hand-stripe and hand-letter on all the markings, but now? MicroScale and other decals come practically dip em and stick em on and the scheme is perfect. (in this case it seems even more ridiculous a complaint, seeing as the proto loco was all black with plain white lettering -- try updating, painting and decaling a DL-0109 in NH pinstripes!!)
This pickiness is baffling to me. Heightened sensibilities or just lazy? I have no idea.
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"Hey buddy ... got a brand-new 2014 Lexus here, loaded, sell it to you legally for $2000. Interested?"
"EEEWWWWW!!! It's orange with a silver stripe! NO WAY!!!"
I don't understand the mindset behind ignoring a version of any N locomotive that has been done once (or never) before, but now with up-to-date electronics, great running ability, excellent details, and a reasonable price because "EEEWWWWWW!!! It's the wrong color!" I see this over and over again in N scale, with locos, cars, whatever.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY SELL MODEL PAINT AND DECALS? I could see if this was the "old days" when you had to trial-and-error mix and match paints to get your color, plus hand-stripe and hand-letter on all the markings, but now? MicroScale and other decals come practically dip em and stick em on and the scheme is perfect. (in this case it seems even more ridiculous a complaint, seeing as the proto loco was all black with plain white lettering -- try updating, painting and decaling a DL-0109 in NH pinstripes!!)
This pickiness is baffling to me. Heightened sensibilities or just lazy? I have no idea.
I'm not complaining about a wrong number or a incorrect font. I can paint a locomotive Pacemaker Green (not black) and it looks like Tony is working on decals. But I can't just sit here while the Bach-man does drugs before picking out paint schemes. I do not think there is anything picky about this.
Imagine thousands of prototype photos to use for research and ignoring all of them for one single painting. But wait how did they come up with the number on the cab? It doesn't match the painting. Did they look at real information for that one detail?
The Atlas S2 is listed at BLW for $79.95 and the Bachmann S4 is listed for $78.49. I think I'll just wait for Atlas to make my Lexus for an extra $1.46 because I'm lazy:
https://picasaweb.google.com/ErieChris333/NScale#5206324657267389378
I sure hope this isn't a NW2 (bachmanns next switcher):
http://coalingstation.com/images/36.jpg
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... The Atlas S2 is listed at BLW for $79.95 and the Bachmann S4 is listed for $78.49. I think I'll just wait for Atlas to make my Lexus for an extra $1.46 because I'm lazy:
https://picasaweb.google.com/ErieChris333/NScale#5206324657267389378
Chris, your scratchbuilt FM is powered by an old Arnold S2 mechanism, correct? Are you going to retrofit the Atlas mechanism when it's available?
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I understand the angst against Bachmann not researching schemes and numbers properly.
From a business standpoint I don't get that either.
It's not quite as bad as having "Donald Duck" on the side of the locomotive because everyone would know when they saw it that it's not a RR thing. But as it (the NYC/P&LE loco) goes probably 99 out of 100 model railroaders would not know the scheme is wrong. I didn't until someone pointed it out on the board when the locomotive was announced.
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(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-W28XtXT7qGo/UhADoKkZr7I/AAAAAAAAJ8s/TOHIYjGz1lk/s800/20111128451_PLE.jpg)
Gotta admit that'd be a pretty scheme though!
The S.
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... It's not quite as bad as having "Donald Duck" on the side of the locomotive because everyone would know when they saw it that it's not a RR thing. But as it (the NYC/P&LE loco) goes probably 99 out of 100 model railroaders would not know the scheme is wrong. I didn't until someone pointed it out on the board when the locomotive was announced.
Out of the group of N scale model railroaders that are modeling the P&LE specifically, particularly those who have been modeling the railroad for a while, I would think a greater number would know the scheme is inaccurate rather than the reverse. I agree that the majority of the "toy train set" crowd that Bachmann targets would not. But among long-time modelers, while no one will know every detail about a railroad no matter how hardcore he/she is, I would think that the majority would be familiar with the paint schemes of the period modeled. And, based on past history of what manufacturers release, they would verify the fidelity of the scheme if they weren't certain.
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Chris, your scratchbuilt FM is powered by an old Arnold S2 mechanism, correct? Are you going to retrofit the Atlas mechanism when it's available?
It uses the S2 frame, but a LifeLike SW motor. It is actually one of my best running (slow) locos:
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/50209/title/erie-hh660-23304/cat/500
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I've always liked your HH660. I'll have to make one of those someday.
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... "toy train set" crowd that Bachmann targets ...
Bryan, we all have been using this excuse to easily forgive all the problems with Bachmann models for decades (pretty much since Bachmann started producing N scale models). But I started thinking about this and I don't think we should let them off the hook so easily anymore. :trollface:
While Bachmann (and also Model Power and Life-Like) all have been associated with "toy grade" N scale models, all those companies have drastically improved the quality and fidelity of their models in the last decade (or even longer ago).
Bachmann introduced their Spectrum line of higher end models into N scale. They have successfully produced several very good models (especially of steam locos). While those models have flaws, the serious model railroaders took notice and started buying them (and even gave them positive reviews). Bachmann responded by making even more Spectrum-series models (such as the doodlebug or the new trolley).
Do you really think that Bachmann still produces their models strictly for the train-set modelers? I really don't think so. I think that their aspirations are a bit higher. They still have some ways to go, but they have been improving. Too bad that they often take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.... :|
However, I really think that we should stop excusing Bachman's mistakes by continuing to pigeon-hoe them as the toy-train manufacturer.
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While Bachmann has made great strides, it is apparent that they have price points related to the target audience (hence the Spectrum vs their regular line). As the S-4 is not of the Spectrum line, it would be my supposition that it is targeted at the general model railroading audience and hence devoid of some of the finer details. Does this excuse a paint error? Maybe or maybe not, it depends on the individual. As I intend to repaint mine for Northern Pacific, it could come from Bachmann painted purple for all I care. All bashing aside, I have seen nothing but good reviews from those who have purchased it (myself included) and I have not seen a smoother running switcher (or any smoother running N scale model for that matter).
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But it's not like using the right paint scheme costs any more.
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Bryan, we all have been using this excuse to easily forgive all the problems with Bachmann models for decades (pretty much since Bachmann started producing N scale models). But I started thinking about this and I don't think we should let them off the hook so easily anymore. :trollface:
While Bachmann (and also Model Power and Life-Like) all have been associated with "toy grade" N scale models, all those companies have drastically improved the quality and fidelity of their models in the last decade (or even longer ago).
I put the "toy train set" in quotes for a reason. Their items are equipped with DCC yet priced to entice people to enter the hobby, similar to what Athearn was doing 40 years ago in HO, and be well-detailed enough and operate well enough to persuade those newcomers to stay brand-loyal. I'm not overlooking the fact that they continue to take liberties with the deco schemes a significant amount of the time. But we aren't the target audience. We happen to benefit from their decision to improve the tooling and functional quality of their products.
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Not getting any those go around. I'm not modeling P&LE but if I was I kinda like the fake/foobie paint scheme better than the real one. Guess if I was a P&LE modeler I wouldn't get it tho.
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But it's not like using the right paint scheme costs any more.
This is very true, but we have all seen the manufacturers use paint schemes that appeal to a broader audience whether realistic or not.
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This is very true, but we have all seen the manufacturers use paint schemes that appeal to a broader audience whether realistic or not.
But it's not just paint schemes. Look at Bachmann's 'new' chimera of an AAR 40 foot boxcar. That's got more liberties than an aircraft carrier comin' in to port. :D
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But it's not just paint schemes. Look at Bachmann's 'new' chimera of an AAR 40 foot boxcar. That's got more liberties than an aircraft carrier comin' in to port. :D
I have never seen a Bachmann freight car I like.
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The boxcar does have issues. But the two tank cars are well done, with body-mounted couplers and correct ride height, and requiring only a swap out the wheels and couplers. Same with the NE caboose.
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The boxcar does have issues. But the two tank cars are well done, with body-mounted couplers and correct ride height, and requiring only a swap out the wheels and couplers. Same with the NE caboose.
The tank cars were a great addition, the NE Caboose is damn near perfect. The flat cars are welcome additions too, just like the Atlas flats just swap out the decks and add body mount couplers.
The S.
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Wish Bachmann made an undec , waiting for a 1950's UP scheme and while doing so wondering how true to prototype it will be is like ( make your own analogy and share it ). :facepalm:
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It appears Microscale set 60-88 has the decals needed, even the "P&LE" sub-lettering on the cab.
Would any one know of a good paint match for the Bachmann green?
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Shouldn't it be in NYC colors, which suggests a full repaint is necessary?
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I'm pretty sure the real ones were green, they just looked almost black when weathered. This is an Atlas HO S2, but I think the paint is correct for a S4:
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hos2s4/0507/10000037_TQ.jpg
I would try to keep the sill and handrails un-touched. Then strip the hood and cab since I doubt just the lettering will come off. So I think it would be easiest to just paint and decal the hood/cab
And all this makes me wonder if Atlas will do the S2 in P&LE... then I could have a P&LE loco that was a few years closer to my era. S2's built in 1948-49 and S4's in 1953.
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Chris,
You are going to have to get one of these. I finally got a chance to run one tonight. Dead quiet, smooth as silk, and top speed on 12V of 30 scale mph. It's a switcher that acts like a switcher.
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I'm pretty sure the real ones were green, they just looked almost black when weathered. This is an Atlas HO S2, but I think the paint is correct for a S4:
http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hos2s4/0507/10000037_TQ.jpg
I would try to keep the sill and handrails un-touched. Then strip the hood and cab since I doubt just the lettering will come off. So I think it would be easiest to just paint and decal the hood/cab
And all this makes me wonder if Atlas will do the S2 in P&LE... then I could have a P&LE loco that was a few years closer to my era. S2's built in 1948-49 and S4's in 1953.
Atlas might even put tread plate on the decks...
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Atlas might even put tread plate on the decks...
Oh boy..... ok, not to start a war but I was recently measuring tread plate in n scale on a few models and to say that it's "grossly oversized" is a understatement.... in reality, and in scale you would be hard pressed to see most treadplate were it molded in perfect scale.... the treadplate that has been added may add to the visual appeal of models but strictly speaking the ones I measured were way, way out of scale.... so; are we advocating for an out of scale detail when we complain about missing tread plate.... and is it a game breaker ?
Just my opinion.....
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Oh boy..... ok, not to start a war but I was recently measuring tread plate in n scale on a few models and to say that it's "grossly oversized" is a understatement.... in reality, and in scale you would be hard pressed to see most treadplate were it molded in perfect scale.... the treadplate that has been added may add to the visual appeal of models but strictly speaking the ones I measured were way, way out of scale.... so; are we advocating for an out of scale detail when we complain about missing tread plate.... and is it a game breaker ?
Just my opinion.....
Not just your opinion - I agree 100%. I have not yet seen a correctly scaled N scale treadplate. If I did, I would need a magnifying glass to see the texture. :|
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>...recently measuring tread plate...
Ah... yes, good point. I had been thinking about that. Tread patterns have roughly 3/16" of relief. That's 0.001" in N.
OTOH, it's industry practice to have loco hood doors in relief (0.005-0.010") from the body to emphasize the detail, when in real life they are flush. Rivets have the same problem, too. It's a difficult choice - overscale detail, or detail so invisible as to be perceived as not there.
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This all boils down to the old "how big is a brick" problem. Absolutely scale details range from difficult to impractical to downright impossible to render. Manufacturers must strike a delicate balance between what "looks right" and what's feasible given the technology as well as the budget. In some cases, a correctly-scaled detail may not look right when mixed in with others that aren't, so some details that could be correct are deliberately rendered as not in order to keep the proportions balanced. Success depends on the skill of the tooler.
What we end up with is a compromise. Many (possibly most) details on any given model will not be to scale, but is the model satisfying overall? That of course will vary according to the modeler: some may find out-of-scale tread plate to look fine, while others may think it's gross. The manufacturer naturally cannot please everyone, so they take their best shot in order to generate the best possible sales. Oversize tread plate may in fact become a bullet point in a list of features touting a superior model. The bottom line is whether or not it gets you to open your wallet.
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Interesting... I guess it all boils down to what you notice and what you don't. I know my eye is still not trained well enough to spot some of the inaccuracies you guys can. Some things give me fits like ride height and coupler shank length. On the other hand, I never really notice things like hood width and tread plate relief. Sometimes overly thick handrails will get my attention, but not always.
Then again, I almost never view my models in isolation. One of the benefits to having a "finished" model railroad is that once I place a new piece of equipment on the layout, it becomes a part of a larger scene and only those attributes that conflict with the scene will trigger my ire.
Still I believe manufacturers should try as best they can to make models accurate in their own right such as the compromises necessary for scale, material, and operation in N will allow. A case in point: body-mounted couplers. I honestly believe all new N scale equipment should come so equipped. We've all but completely phased out Rapido couplers...truck-mounted knuckles should similarly be on the endangered list.
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This all boils down to the old "how big is a brick" problem. Absolutely scale details range from difficult to impractical to downright impossible to render. Manufacturers must strike a delicate balance between what "looks right" and what's feasible given the technology as well as the budget. In some cases, a correctly-scaled detail may not look right when mixed in with others that aren't, so some details that could be correct are deliberately rendered as not in order to keep the proportions balanced. Success depends on the skill of the tooler.
What we end up with is a compromise. Many (possibly most) details on any given model will not be to scale, but is the model satisfying overall? That of course will vary according to the modeler: some may find out-of-scale tread plate to look fine, while others may think it's gross. The manufacturer naturally cannot please everyone, so they take their best shot in order to generate the best possible sales. Oversize tread plate may in fact become a bullet point in a list of features touting a superior model. The bottom line is whether or not it gets you to open your wallet.
Exactly... so I don't judge a model by the inclusion or exclusion of tread plate because I can take either side of the argument..... "beauty is in the eye of the purchaser".... Tee hee
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Interesting... I guess it all boils down to what you notice and what you don't. I know my eye is still not trained well enough to spot some of the inaccuracies you guys can. Some things give me fits like ride height and coupler shank length. On the other hand, I never really notice things like hood width and tread plate relief. Sometimes overly thick handrails will get my attention, but not always.
That's about it for me also. The thing I notice most is ride height. Most newer manufacturers get it right with the exception of one. The cars with high ride height I tend not to operate as much because it just looks wrong.