TheRailwire
General Discussion => Layout Engineering Reports => Topic started by: Jeff AKA St0rm on November 11, 2012, 09:05:28 PM
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Well normally this time of your with the golf season coming to an end I have lots of time to work on my layout. It will be a little different this winter as the wife and I bought a house so I will have room in the basement for a 12x20 layout. I sold what I had done on the old layout to a friend so I am without a layout for the time being. We take possession of the house at the end of the month and then I will have to finish the basement before bench work can start.
Over the last few weeks I have been playing around with AnyRail planning the new layout. I thought I would post a Pic of what I have so far. Keep in mind that this is just the first draft of the track plan. I will work the track plan so that very little track other than the yard is parallel is the front of the layout. Any Ideas are welcome
My plan is to have staging under the layout and to have a modern double track major main line. Lots of trains that run through and or stop to pick up and drop of in the yard during an ops season. I am planning on having 3-5 major industries that will need pickups and drop offs. Paper Mill, oil refinery, auto plant and grain for sure. Train length will be based on 24 coal porters with 2 sd40-2, about 10 feet. I will be using Atlas code 55 with a minimum radius of 18”.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q4VkZeMiGvg/UKBXnSJw4fI/AAAAAAAAAag/A4DBdLFfNLA/s800/12x20v3-2.jpg)
For a bigger Pic please see my blog
http://jeffscpline.blogspot.ca/2012/11/new-layout-planing.html (http://jeffscpline.blogspot.ca/2012/11/new-layout-planing.html)
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Jeff,
Are you sure that you want to place the yard in the corner? Coupling and uncoupling on curved track is a pain in the rear at best. I'd consider moving the yard to the left, so it is entirely along the long wall.
Hope this helps,
DFF
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I agree on the curved yard - if you plan on making/breaking trains, the curves will be the source of much frustration.
Are you leaving the space in the middle open for any particular reason? Good opportunity for a peninsula in there, you have plenty of room still leaving ample aisles. I have to ask since you've completely surrounded the room, which sort of hints there are no plans for the space other than the layout.
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I have thought of doing a peninsula at some point down the line. For the time being I am going to have a lounge chair for watching TV. I also have to have my work desk under the layout along with spray booth. I have thought about doing the yard along the top wall. Thanks for the feed back. More plan updates will be posted when I have more planing done.
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Also agree re: curved yard; if you swapped it end-for-end, you could wrap the engine facilities around into the corner where the class tracks are now. Also wondering about all those double-crossovers; they are quite rare in real life. A bit cheaper and more proto to use pairs of opposing single crossovers.
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Also wondering about all those double-crossovers; they are quite rare in real life. A bit cheaper and more proto to use pairs of opposing single crossovers.
I was thinking about that too but 4 #10 switches in row take up a lot more space.
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I was thinking about that too but 4 #10 switches in row take up a lot more space.
Only 33% more than two plus a crossing, and I don't know that you need as many as four full sets. Just sayin'.
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Nice to see another layout taking shape. A few more questions for you to ponder:
- In addition to moving the yard out of the corner, is there any reason not to put the helix in the corner?
- Do you have a locale or prototype in mind? Will this be industrial/urban, rural? If urban, a small peninsula would be a great spot for a busy urban switching area.
- Will you have an operating crew, or will this be run solo?
- The yard is a pretty dominant feature of the current plan, while the mainline run is relatively short (unless you count multiple laps of continuous running). This strikes me as a terminal type plan where a through train appears from staging and fairly quickly enters the yard, then re-enters staging fairly quickly thereafter. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is something to consider. I would be tempted to scale the visible yard back a bit and work in a longer mainline run, but that may not be best for you.
Cheers,
Gary
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The yard is a pretty dominant feature of the current plan, while the mainline run is relatively short (unless you count multiple laps of continuous running). This strikes me as a terminal type plan where a through train appears from staging and fairly quickly enters the yard, then re-enters staging fairly quickly thereafter. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is something to consider. I would be tempted to scale the visible yard back a bit and work in a longer mainline run, but that may not be best for you.
One option to increase the mainline run is to send the main down the helix, through a loop around the staging yard, and back up.
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I do appreciate all the feedbacks so don’t think that I don’t and I do consider all suggestion.
I know what you are saying Dave I might be able to scale back on the crossovers. On this updated plan I have moved the yard and taken out all the double crosses.
Gary It isn’t really a Helix. It is only one turn then will run under the layout down to about 4” under the yard and then back up. It is going to be a freelance layout. I model CP, BNSF, and NS all modern. The layout is going to be located in a suburb of a major city. It will have major industries.
The layout for the most part will be operated by myself but I want to be able to have op’s sessions. I Love big yards and I think I will keep the big yard. If I were to put in a Peninsula then that would increase the mainline run but at this time I will not be doing that.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FbZ-OjHzk8o/UKG2PXWEpxI/AAAAAAAAAaw/JjfKYcdqjYw/s640/12x20v3-3.jpg)
Thanks again for looking and for the help.
edit - fixed image tag. -gfh
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Gary It isn’t really a Helix. It is only one turn then will run under the layout down to about 4” under the yard and then back up.
Is that 4" enough vertical clearance, if you need to get in there with a 0-5-0? I'd also be a bit concerned about reach-in access to the tracks that are against the wall below the balloon tracks, esp. if this is going to be a relatively high shelf.
Speaking of access, where is the door to the room? Will you have a duckunder, lift-out, other?
HTH,
Ed
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I have some concerns with the A/D tracks coming right off of the curves. You might want to give it about a scale 89' of straigh track before going into the switches. Will eliminate some derailments.
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I agree with ed, I think you'll regret only 4" of clearance. I'd go with a one or two turn helix. It's more than the 0-5-0. What about track cleaning and maintenance?
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Well I have been working on the plan some more. Here is an update on what I have. Any and all input is welcome.
I still have the bottom and the right side of the layout to work on. The double track bridge at the bottom will be a lift out.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K4yTFIndrSo/UMkrqVoxXxI/AAAAAAAAAbY/GzcghcFjZ2g/s800/12x20v4-4-2.jpg)
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Something to consider.... all double track main means trains proceed both directions unimpeded. Single track main often adds operating interest due to the need to schedule and manage meets.
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I would try to work a reversing loop into the plan.
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I would try to work a reversing loop into the plan.
Why if both ends are connected?
I do agree, making it single track would add a little more excitement to the operations,
Phil
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I would try to work a reversing loop into the plan.
Easy peasy. Run a track from one side of the peninsula to the other, and call it a day.
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I have to offer a dissenting opinion about the single track mains. Double track can be challenging as well, but it does require a little more traffic. On my layout, the local will occupy the main to work industries. That means that the dispatcher has to route traffic around the locals. Once the operations become more sophisticated, I plan on parking a work train in certain blocks, forcing single-tracking around it. Double track also allows for things like rolling overtake moves. Given that I'm planning on passenger ops in addition to freight ops, and trying to keep a crew of 4-8 people plus a dispatcher busy, double track makes more sense to me than single.
Long story short, double track ops can be challenging if you've got a little creativity and the traffic to support it. It can also be useful if you want to have one train running loops while you operate another. Do what works for your situation.
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^^^^^ - What Eric said. For operating alone, I like the mix/challenge of a mainline train with the the throttle set to a happy medium and the switches set for a continuous loop, then operating a local, industrial job, peddler, or whatever, which then has to dodge the through traffic. Jeff's layout design is just large enough to do that.
Jeff, I might add another switching opportunity in the lower right somewhere and call this one ready to commit. I like it.
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While Eric and Mike bring up good points on how to do double-track main ops, if between switching areas you had single track then there is even more dispatching required if a local is working on one of those sidings since you would need to ensure up to 3 consecutive blocks (single, switching area, single) were free to move trains through to get around the switcher. This could be a good chunk of a layout which would then cause items to back up everywhere else. Then, to throw more of a loop, does the switcher have to use the main at all to runaround or even past the siding turnouts as a possible lead into an industry, thus trying to gain permission or having to operate against a set time.
Just some more food for thought and I do like Mike's idea of a switching area in the bottom right,
Phil
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I do like the ideas guy. The layout is double tracked so I can run lots of trains when I am alone. There are times when I like to rail fan my layout so the ability to run trains free and clear makes sense to me. When it comes to ops session I can close parts of the double main for repairs. When I operate alone I do like to have trains running by on their own as I operate whatever train I am running. This is another reason it is double tracked.
All of my major industries have small yards and run around options so they will not block the main. During op session the main will always be clear. One main will be for east bound and one for west. There will be passenger service for commuters both east and west that will have to move around freight. I am working on how many blocks I will have, trains will be 10’ long so I am hoping to have 6-8 blocks if I can. I still need to calculate the length of main but I am hoping to get 80’.
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Well with summer and work at the golf club starting to slow down I have finally started working on bench work for my layout.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4rYVpsSctns/UjESdJJRIgI/AAAAAAAAA-0/AR9pDyPIGUo/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520008.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wQTlpnuppgU/UjESbTUlRyI/AAAAAAAAA-w/bDzwzEgEdJs/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520007.JPG)
Layout Plan still in the works
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oZN1dlzgi_g/UjEbnlURFnI/AAAAAAAAA_s/LYl5cxWj4W8/s800/12x19.5%2520v%25207-2.jpg)
http://jeffscpline.blogspot.ca/
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Looks like a nice start Jeff!
But why not do something with the walls before you start the benchwork?
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How about a close up of those wall displays with all the NS and CP goodness there. Give us something to drool over.
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Michael I will have backer boards that are 14" high and skirting around the layout so not much of the wall will be visible. I didn't want to spend money on walls I wasn't going to see.
Scott here are some better pics of the display cases. More pics of some of my custom painted stuff can be found in my albums.
https://picasaweb.google.com/101236537843388734996/JeffSUnnamedLayout?authuser=0&feat=directlink
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5ES6WO-5NMc/UjI0kWAaPSI/AAAAAAAABBs/YMbCXWqnhXQ/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520020.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V4klHNBAnWU/UjI0jr5vMiI/AAAAAAAABBw/FTrxNbu1AS4/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520021.JPG)
Also got more bench work done today. The only thing I need to finish now is a foot and a half of bench work and the 2'6" lift out.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-irvoC4_hQ_I/UjI0JdrbHRI/AAAAAAAABBQ/a6iLAW4YsUE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520010.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HCA80rclZaQ/UjI0JrV5B_I/AAAAAAAABBQ/AjuCX2Ji_04/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520011.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ypOCmSZQbf4/UjI0PkTiDKI/AAAAAAAABBQ/4mP1VJovaOE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520014.JPG)
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Great stuff Jeff, thanks for the shots!
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Great stuff Jeff, thanks for the shots!
Thanks.
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This is how I built my benchwork also .. ripped plywood .. you can get a lot out of one 4x8 sheet .. like others have said, spend a little to put some sheet rock on the wall .. and 2 track is a lot of fun ..
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Also got more bench work done today. The only thing I need to finish now is a foot and a half of bench work and the 2'6" lift out.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-irvoC4_hQ_I/UjI0JdrbHRI/AAAAAAAABBQ/a6iLAW4YsUE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520010.JPG)
So you will be building a "Swamp" scene in front of that Florida backdrop scene?
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I am lean strongly toward the use of ripped plywood bench work for my next layout.
I note this one used 3/4" plywood.
Would 1/2" plywood work as well?
I am considering cross supports about 24" on center.
Thanks.
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I know guys that use 1/2 but they glue and use a nail gun. I use 24" centers for my stringers. if you were to use 1/2 I think 16" would work better. It also depends on what type of weight it will have to support.
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Rip the plywood. If you go with 1/2 inch ply, I would do supports every 16-20 inches. 3/4 might let you get away with 24 inches between. I just reused a bunch of 3/4 that I ripped for benchwork I started 15 years ago and it was in better shape than the piece lumber sold today.
Like the modified plan, though if you are going modern and urban/suburban, the peninsula might work better as two industrial leads with no loop, ala Lance Mindhiem style.
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I think I will opt of 1/2" and shorter distance between cross members, i.e, the 16 or 20".
My plan may be five modules of 4'x8' arranged with a 4'x24' section and 4'x8' peninsula at each end.
I had similar layout previously and like it and the options it allowed.
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww198/RogerGPerkins/DSC_1861.jpg) (http://s719.photobucket.com/user/RogerGPerkins/media/DSC_1861.jpg.html)
This is a hand drawn sketch of the layout. Because the paper is only 22" wide, I drew it to that size, however my intention is to make in 24 feet long. This is a modification of a layout I had for about 10 years before we moved in 2005.
The "accountant" and decorator has rejected this plan as taking too much room in the basement. Just need a larger basement. ;)
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I can't be leave I haven't updated this since mid September. With the lack of code 55 track there are no trains running but I have all the bench work in and starting to lay the cork. I am thinking that I might start on the scenery and add the track when ever I get my order.
Here is some bench work pic's and also an updated track plan.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r1kUY11g8hI/UogpXXEP1lI/AAAAAAAABEk/NbP96hFmbv0/s800/Layout%2520construction%2520033.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sPE-tFpYhK4/UogpYvRxdSI/AAAAAAAABEs/zX4s8XxEOe0/s800/Layout%2520construction%2520034.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Bg79Wckzkec/UogpeK6THII/AAAAAAAABE4/cSBrKKgjGHE/s800/Layout%2520construction%2520036.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qxNcYy5LuK4/Uq37PUim5xI/AAAAAAAABLA/d7KllvWeSE4/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520039.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-P6tvW35bcTU/Uq37Py1YYmI/AAAAAAAABKo/aGQnED6WxIs/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520040.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G_dtoJ1e9hQ/Uq3wRPZ-BuI/AAAAAAAABKU/34Xfd3_-V1U/s800/12x19.5%2520v%25207-3-2.jpg)
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I can't be leave I haven't updated this since mid September. With the lack of code 55 track there are no trains running but I have all the bench work in and starting to lay the cork. I am thinking that I might start on the scenery and add the track when ever I get my order.
Here is some bench work pic's and also an updated track plan.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-P6tvW35bcTU/Uq37Py1YYmI/AAAAAAAABKo/aGQnED6WxIs/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520040.JPG)
Should you try to straighten those S curves by that black utility knife? They do have straight track between them, but are those sections long enough on all the tracks to prevent problems with long cars?
Love the progress. You've been busy! I stash my clamps the same way. I may hold off a long time on installing fascia so I can keep the clamps close at hand.
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Because of the long angle of the pic it looks short but there is almost 2 feet there. It was never in the plan but when I build the peninsula it lined up better if I off set it by 3 inches so the track angle had to change so I could keep the turns the same.
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Been working on my grain elevator. I am using 2 of the Walther's Kits. Here is a pic of the test fit to see now it will look. Time for more paint.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A-OBpUPLDhU/UsHwoGA1EpI/AAAAAAAABLs/_jmSjFGq1Ko/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520044.JPG)
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Progress on the home layout has been slow as we are rebuilding the club layout. I have spent some time working on buildings for the city/town.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YSJLLApAbHU/UvewSvELKNI/AAAAAAAABfg/AT3oay789t8/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520061.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5h4Vae48gAY/UvewUzXDvmI/AAAAAAAABfg/LUoI18cPr00/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520062.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-L-NFl17d7ts/UvewUuzUrtI/AAAAAAAABfg/gt-mnnEojkU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520063.JPG)
Jeff
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Some work has been done in the last few weeks.
I have started to work on my bridge scene. My scene will not have the highway just a river and it is also double tracked.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VzJiqzje8vI/U0rEg5HvPwI/AAAAAAAABj0/F_6OjzggdQI/s800/CP%2520Bridge%2520019.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fUi2EtnMjUY/U0rE487Cb5I/AAAAAAAABko/MlwGYvWb2hs/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520064.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g3_zYs844Wo/U0rE52qKxhI/AAAAAAAABko/w_GjJeMF0IM/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520065.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ul_AW4bI6FA/U0rE5f9G8KI/AAAAAAAABko/Gx3Mwtb9daA/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520066.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ES3v1_Jhhe4/U0rE937LryI/AAAAAAAABko/ku5hfs26LOo/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520067.JPG)
Also I have built my drop down section. It is a nice fit right now we will see how it holds up.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FpcUZ9EQIns/U0rGdH98xQI/AAAAAAAABlg/AN53rufeJKI/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520071.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RcBWPJpjlwg/U0rGdyJNhnI/AAAAAAAABlg/9mS4ObluRRw/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520072.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ivV-42u_gSc/U0rGc4Q1SOI/AAAAAAAABlg/DAJP84M4MXY/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520073.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zRZvRIAUWXs/U0rGhNeaMFI/AAAAAAAABlg/mAnsPnSEhfI/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520074.JPG)
Thanks for looking
Jeff
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The bridge looks good and I like your drop down. I may use your hardware approach for my own.
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I am going to add another latch to the other side because the other side is a little loose.
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I am going to add another latch to the other side because the other side is a little louse.
Sounds like you need either an exterminator, or a couple of mobsters. :trollface:
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Is there anything more than that one latch holding the bridge closed? Seems like a catch in the edge of a piece of plywood is awfully chancy, especially in the long term, for maintaining the necessary vertical alignment. I'd hate for this area to become an operational reliability problem down the road after it's all scenic'd and integrated.
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Is there anything more than that one latch holding the bridge closed? Seems like a catch in the edge of a piece of plywood is awfully chancy, especially in the long term, for maintaining the necessary vertical alignment. I'd hate for this area to become an operational reliability problem down the road after it's all scenic'd and integrated.
I am going to put a latch on the other side as well. But other than that i don't know how else to make it work.
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You could try something, like the latest Model Railroader has in it. The hinge is on a drawer slide, mounted vertically. You lift the hinge end first, then let the whole thing swing and slide down. The free end rests on a ledge, where vertical alignment can be maintained.
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So after another busy season at the golf course it is starting to slow down and it is time to get back to the basement and some work on the layout. I have been working a little here and there throughout the summer but nothing worth posting about until now.
With my track still on backorder I started to work on building, roads and also I had enough track to work on my river crossing.
My “city” is starting to take shape with roads going in and building being placed. The road still needs lots of weathering but it is a start.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--qHCtoTUK84/VDNVIvS8PLI/AAAAAAAABtY/cHLAEmNkHLE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520090.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dN1oN-PuYWc/VDNVIA9BnHI/AAAAAAAABtU/C5tVreByojU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520091.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NQnus3OItR4/VDZ78UX227I/AAAAAAAABvk/vqzS2GmUiYQ/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520092.JPG)
The river has a base layer of scenery and the trees are just in place temporarily until I get everything done around them so they still might move. Once I am happy with the back part of the river I will install the train bridge. I still need to build a center support for the bridge.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QLCUGznJ1JA/VAO7LtACcwI/AAAAAAAABr8/gDFxuhRi5sU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520082.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gGvFh95Qdes/VAO7NOvqmLI/AAAAAAAABrw/VENP-cqFhLk/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520084.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WTXKnBGEtbI/VAO7NliQI9I/AAAAAAAABr0/5auJxA6DPIw/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520085.JPG)
I have also started a kitbash with 2 George Roberts Printing.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BGEUeWjF_f0/VANAdGUewuI/AAAAAAAABq8/mDtc5unBKUk/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520079.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8ieWvf8zTj4/VANAera_05I/AAAAAAAABrI/-yMHdb7E1BQ/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520080.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b9P_8Fx9utY/VANAhCTipMI/AAAAAAAABrU/V3NJsHJJekQ/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520081.JPG)
And Lastly i airbrushed some clouds. I dont know if i like how they look but the good news is i still have lots of blue paint so i can always start over
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CuvKFefLWqQ/VB8rk4acFeI/AAAAAAAABsk/gVuxiLpM8-M/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520086.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WrDzQELxGjk/VB8rju4Wd8I/AAAAAAAABsY/d9TyQ8e-JpM/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520087.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-s5qiKBo2jXM/VB8rlNJFqdI/AAAAAAAABso/7HQ6SBOxGbU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520088.JPG)
That is all for now but I will post more often as things start to come together.
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(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--qHCtoTUK84/VDNVIvS8PLI/AAAAAAAABtY/cHLAEmNkHLE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520090.JPG)
That's a very interesting Guiness building.
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dN1oN-PuYWc/VDNVIA9BnHI/AAAAAAAABtU/C5tVreByojU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520091.JPG)
This is really nicely done. The striping is excellent. And yes a litlte weathering down the center will be icing on the cake, but honestly, not needed.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QLCUGznJ1JA/VAO7LtACcwI/AAAAAAAABr8/gDFxuhRi5sU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520082.JPG)
I don't think this needs a center support. Perhaps a layer of class 3 rip rap below the footings (and not running all the way up to them). But o center support.
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... I don't think this needs a center support. Perhaps a layer of class 3 rip rap below the footings (and not running all the way up to them). But o center support.
Hmm. I do think it needs a center support. It's been decades since I knew how to run the calculations, but my edu-SWAG says the girder walls are not tall enough for the loading. They'd need to be about 50% beefier (or 25% shorter) for an unsupported span.
It would be OK for a highway bridge, but as it is it's too light for RR weights.
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Hmm. I do think it needs a center support. It's been decades since I knew how to run the calculations, but my edu-SWAG says the girder walls are not tall enough for the loading. They'd need to be about 50% beefier (or 25% shorter) for an unsupported span.
Wouldn't it then also become two bridges?
Jason
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Typically, yes. It's simply easier and lower cost to transport smaller spans to the site. But there's nothing I know of that would keep you from doing it with one big span and piering the middle. :shouldershrug:
I'm sure it's happened (Ed's Law applies here). Engineering does their calcs, sends the order off to the bridge company, company can't get Grade [whatever] steel in the size they need but goes ahead anyway, RR finds out, chief engineer blows a gasket and then goes back to his people telling them they'll have to design a center support. I've seen similar scenarios firsthand when I was working for DOTs. Not pretty.
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The Bridge is 120' long so i think it needs something in the middle. I am no bridge expert but i am sure it will look safer if it has a support.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VzJiqzje8vI/U0rEg5HvPwI/AAAAAAAABnM/umSXbhjrROY/s800/CP%2520Bridge%2520019.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MGM3Acak7GU/VDbwHJOjvNI/AAAAAAAABwU/W9vWoKbNCeE/s800/CP%2520Bridge%2520002.JPG)
This what i am using as a reference. It is hard to tell but it looks like 4 bridges that have been welded together. I don't see any seams. If that is the case I can make it look better with the center support with some bridge shoes. I will look tonight on my way home to see if i am missing somthing.
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Loading is one matter, but it would be unusual to put a pillar in the middle of a river like that. The pillar would deflect flow and lead to undercutting of the banks.
Given the span and the channel profile, a truss bridge would be more likely. Alternatively, a shorter mid section (say 60 or 80') and two pillars at the banks with approach spans.
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Loading is one matter, but it would be unusual to put a pillar in the middle of a river like that. The pillar would deflect flow and lead to undercutting of the banks.
Does it have to be a river? Why not a divided highway as in the pictures? Or a river on one side, and a road along the other, so the center pillar wouldn't be interfering with flow?
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That span over the highway is more then 120 feet. Heck the single span over the one set of lane is probably 80 or so. The river definitely looks like a high flow channel - any pier In it would be cause serious erosion under the abutments.
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ok so the prototype is the Red Hill Valley parkway in Hamilton On. The tracks go over the Highway and also i small river that has a light flow. The river banks look as there do because it is part of the Niagara Escarpment. In the prototype the river has been moved so they could put the highway in and is now lined with concrete. I was thinking of building a concrete river bottom under the bridge where the support will go, so it will not be a normal river bottom but a man made one.
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You could definitely do that. Most diverted or straightened channels are not lined with concrete. Common treatments are gabions and the selective use of concrete (especially near other structures like bridge pillars). Coarse rip rap can be used too but most often the banks are just minimally graded and vegetated for erosion control.
In that setting, the last scenario would be most likely. I don't think I have seen concrete channel in Ontario- not enough runoff and ice would not be an issue.
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I knew i had seen bridges like what i wanted to do and here is a proto pic. Ed's Law at it best
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y5d-vYfM7w0/VDh57gsOkVI/AAAAAAAABxM/z8lZWAAS0Rc/s800/alco7.jpg)
Thanks for the ideas guys but this is how i always saw it working.
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I never saw the issue with having a pier in the water. It happens, I've seen it on the prototype like you posted. Having a pier support the middle of a single span however, is another issue.
I'd like to see an Ed's Law on that.
Jason
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Jeff, I am enjoying the pictures of your layout. Very nice work. If I might enquire about your background construction details, what is the height and composition and most of all how you chose the height? Thanks very much.
Wayne
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Jeff, BTW, the air brushed clouds look good. I found that worked for me as well. My first efforts with a paint brush were like cartoons, but the airbrush made natural shapes possible for me.
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Jeff, I am enjoying the pictures of your layout. Very nice work. If I might enquire about your background construction details, what is the height and composition and most of all how you chose the height? Thanks very much.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne,
I used 1/4" hardboard in 4'x8' sheets. Had it ripped in half by Home Depot so they were 2'x8'. So with 1"x3" benchwork + 3" from bench work to track = Backdrop 18" tall. Then i just screwed the hardboard to the 1x3 bench work and it holds up great. Back drop has been up for a year now and all good so far.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QX-NH0g5cBI/VDl6nYEHkOI/AAAAAAAABxk/9ZI0Srba_Ms/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520096.JPG)
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The Bridge is 120' long so i think it needs something in the middle. I am no bridge expert but i am sure it will look safer if it has a support. ...
Not to beat this up too much... I finally ran across something that refreshed my rule-of-thumb on steel plate girder bridges: 1:12. That is, the web (height) of the girder should be 1/12 of the length. If your girder is 10' high, you're golden, though it appears from the picture it's about 8'. Otherwise, center support. Exception to rule for multiple girders - such as could be used under a deck bridge like that - is at 1:15, where any more than that the span has issues supporting its own weight.
So, bottom line - at 120'x8', if there are three (or four) beams underneath that span, it's "legal" in the engineering sense, but right at the max assuming conventional materials.
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Not to beat this up too much... I finally ran across something that refreshed my rule-of-thumb on steel plate girder bridges: 1:12. That is, the web (height) of the girder should be 1/12 of the length. If your girder is 10' high, you're golden, though it appears from the picture it's about 8'. Otherwise, center support. Exception to rule for multiple girders - such as could be used under a deck bridge like that - is at 1:15, where any more than that the span has issues supporting its own weight.
So, bottom line - at 120'x8', if there are three (or four) beams underneath that span, it's "legal" in the engineering sense, but right at the max assuming conventional materials.
Mike I do like the feedback as i want it to look as "real" as i can get it. But like always I didn't do enough research before i built the bridge. When I get home from Thanksgiving dinner tonight i will take some measurements. I am confused about what you mean about 3 or 4 beams underneath the span. What beams are you talking about. So you know it is the Micro Engineering 80' open deck bridge that i used
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For example, a through girder has two beams, one on each side. Popular with railroads because the structure is above, providing maximum clearance below, not popular with highway construction because of the run-into factor. A deck girder can have multiple beams supporting the load.
In the case of the Micro Engineering bridge kits, it has two beams. You can bash a third beam down the middle, or, since nobody's going to explore your layout with a dental mirror :D , you can tell everyone you did it and nobody would be the wiser.
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Ok that makes sense now. I just measured the girders and they are 9.5' so i would not need the center support?
Thanks for the help.
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Hmm. Close enough. At the max spec it probably wouldn't pass muster on a heavily-trafficked main where it would take a beating, but on a lighter line it would probably be fine.
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Well after a year and a half of waiting Santa dropped off a small package for me today.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DGYkwlzRjDs/VJJc07Bm-jI/AAAAAAAABz4/MEVNSA6rxYA/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520110.jpg)
I am still waiting on #10 turnouts but i can start laying track and cut them in later when they show up.
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Holy $$$$ , small fortune there !
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I have named the layout the CP Flog Subdivision and also have trains moving.
Here are some updated photos.
First the City.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o6-z1cQuad4/VKjMc0fMqBI/AAAAAAAAB30/ieaQyEyNj-w/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520098.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WZvl_wqsXzk/VKjMcjlQnUI/AAAAAAAAB30/b8stfAS3hCI/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520099.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LSJfqkRaJpk/VKjMgJQYS1I/AAAAAAAAB30/dWWQQxYXraQ/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520100.JPG)
The track
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EPGl_17ahKU/VKjM5KY1VeI/AAAAAAAAB30/IzOnlS3mPSE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520121.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hNUCfkHWIOk/VKjM5-lIG1I/AAAAAAAAB30/bBBLuKBxgrw/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520123.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yD3YSR1qunk/VKjMzD2dCiI/AAAAAAAAB30/GkwBKJdJWjE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520120.jpg)
The start of the wiring
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EmP3BN8fJbs/VKnkDsMBVwI/AAAAAAAAB4g/HmFY--ujfMg/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520125.jpg)
And a video update.
Jeff
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Great, trains are running!
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Well Done Jeff. Your layout is looking very impressive so far.
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It is great to see that your finally laying track and can run trains.
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Well I have been working on the layout a lot lately but haven't posted much in updates, so here is a small update.
I have been running train to test the track and so far i have had 0 derailments, knock on wood :scared:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WLl5g1K4GIY/VLCFmFfmkjI/AAAAAAAAB5Y/Mi-aSZIbP_I/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520131.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0N1Yb2mXZ9M/VLCFnjoRuaI/AAAAAAAAB5Y/jza1SctvuqU/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520132.jpg)
Now i have started to install slide switched to control the turnouts.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iEXH3FDdSmM/VMxW_w6i-WI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/0zkWlPeXPD0/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520138.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wRtFTPhNolM/VMxXuwh968I/AAAAAAAAB7Y/fKaMey7Y4hE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520139.jpg)
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Another day another update. I have been laying track and working on getting everything running well. So far so good with the track i have had very little problems with the new Atlas code 55 flex or #5 and #7 turnouts.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2OViWKzG0OY/VOlWDXsruvI/AAAAAAAAB-k/4UsuHcH9voE/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520142.JPG)
Started the Industry yard.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jIiO4ctTN1E/VOlWDWTq2JI/AAAAAAAAB-g/rhtYEs8Ynro/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520143.JPG)
This is the other side of there peninsula where the industry yead lead ties into the main line.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZLQvsYwsWyM/VOlWIkPmnqI/AAAAAAAAB-w/PLBzdn1VGcI/s800/Layout%2520Construction%2520146.JPG)
And the start of the intermodal yard.
More can be found on my blog at http://jeffscpline.blogspot.ca/ (http://jeffscpline.blogspot.ca/)
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WOW long time with no updates, Well here is an update. With a long and busy golf season this year and a new baby in August there was Little time to work on the layout. What time i did get i found myself just running trains and getting very little work done.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G47JxIzjwdk/VmsjhEIsSSI/AAAAAAAACFk/bkTlDawkcwY/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520150.jpg)
I have the layout of the intermodal yard set out. The first 2 tracks of the yard are the A/D tracks and hold a full 10' train. the 3rd track in not glued down yet and is the first of the unloading tracks and will hold a full 10' train. The next 2 tracks that are not installed yet will be closer to the front of the layout and with each hold half (5') of a full train.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L385Emj01Gs/VmsjgnDE9MI/AAAAAAAACGE/bwTZu2N4CaA/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520152.jpg)
Here we have the Yard. 6" from the back drop there will be a small 6" tall removable back drop that slips into the cut in the plywood, to hide the 8 track staging yard. Then we have the 2 main lines and 4 A/D tracks. The next track in not glued in and is the first of 6 classification tracks. There will be another 4 tracks for the second staging yard in the space to the bottom right of the photo.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mKA_AqgTVF0/VmsjhbIWGzI/AAAAAAAACFk/ybP9BMLaZ0s/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520153.jpg)
Here is a better look at the 4 track staging yard and the slit that the small back drop will slide into. The staging yard will have block detection so you know what tracks are in use and which are open. The small back drop is removable so if a train derails it will be easier to get back on the track.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XNv50DxcEYU/VmsjiFYjksI/AAAAAAAACF8/3sriSB4UmJw/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520154.jpg)
A view from the other end of the yard.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Pj-YEaQfI5Q/VmsjjClR6nI/AAAAAAAACFk/kPS0C4HCdys/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520155.jpg)
I picked up some Tomex building from Plaza Japan. Great buildings for the price. They need some paint and detailing but they only cost $70 including shipping and Canadian Dollar exchange.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--LSMHqvmHmY/Vmsji36AXeI/AAAAAAAACF4/oxVIderF3vs/s800-Ic42/Layout%252520Construction%252520156.jpg)
Track layout idea for the grain elevator. 2 tracks for empties and 1 track for loading/unloading.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jiipGCOMYHI/VmskJyy33gI/AAAAAAAACF0/TYZ7maU41aw/s800-Ic42/Liliana%2525202019.jpg)
Had a first time visitor to the layout. My daughter Liliana will be 4 months old on the 17th. They say you can never start them to young.
Thanks for looking and hope to get a little more work done this winter.
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With that green chair, Liliana does a nice stand-in as a mountain :D :facepalm:
Great work Jeff, you've made a lot of progress!