What am I not getting?

[tom mann]

The strength of Z is probably mainline action for a while.

But as Gary pointed out, that is very expensive (assuming mainline = long trains). 

I think the strength is a combination of what Joe and you are saying: a long mainline for local/branch operations with large industry.  A mile of track can (almost) "fit" onto two walls in a spare bedroom.

However, most Z scalers seem to enjoy fitting a layout into a small space:  A guitar case, toilet seat, old suitcase.

[David K. Smith]

There was a small layout sold about 20 years ago,the trains ran in slots ,were about T size which I considered buying "Tiny Trains".

Tiny Trains (http://www.tiny-trains.net/) are 1:900, about half the size of T, and they're not cheap.

I'm still trying to figure out how they made a figure 8 run with a belt drive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZxW6Cr2onc

"I have always wanted the worlds smallest layout."

I've got a couple of them.

[davefoxx]

I'm still trying to figure out how they made a figure 8 run with a belt drive...

David,

In case you missed it, there is a post at the bottom of the YouTube video that says, "The train and trolley are at opposite ends of a section/strip of belt, which is timed just right as it is handed between two drive motors."

Hope this helps,
Dave Foxx

[David K. Smith]

I'm still trying to figure out how they made a figure 8 run with a belt drive...

David,

In case you missed it, there is a post at the bottom of the YouTube video that says, "The train and trolley are at opposite ends of a section/strip of belt, which is timed just right as it is handed between two drive motors."

Hope this helps,
Dave Foxx

Ahhh! *lightbulbs go off* Thank you.

(I leave YouTube comments turned off as a rule, so that's how I missed this one.)

[bambuko]

...However, most Z scalers seem to enjoy fitting a layout into a small space:  A guitar case, toilet seat, old suitcase.

>  ??? and until it changes, Z will continue to be seen as toy thingy, which has nothing to offer more serious modellers trying to replicate real railroad scaled down 1:220
There is nothing wrong with toilet seat or suitcase if that's what rocks your boat, but it has little to do with model railroading in my book 

[David K. Smith]

...However, most Z scalers seem to enjoy fitting a layout into a small space:  A guitar case, toilet seat, old suitcase.

>  ??? and until it changes, Z will continue to be seen as toy thingy, which has nothing to offer more serious modellers trying to replicate real railroad scaled down 1:220
There is nothing wrong with toilet seat or suitcase if that's what rocks your boat, but it has little to do with model railroading in my book  

I must agree with this one. Z is still fighting the toy-in-the-briefcase stigma (after nearly 40 years, now), and it won't get past it until there are more full-sized, serious layouts being built. But this may be a chicken-and-egg thing that may never end.
 

[John]

I must agree with this one. Z is still fighting the toy-in-the-briefcase stigma (after nearly 40 years, now), and it won't get past it until there are more full-sized, serious layouts being built. But this may be a chicken-and-egg thing that may never end.
 

Nscale also has this issue .. our toilet seats happen to be coffee tables ..  but we are slowly overcoming it ..

[tom mann]

Note that none of us (I hope) are dismissing "small" layouts.

</preemption>

[Guilford Guy]

I too believe Z is plagued by Chicken & Egg Syndrome, however N scale had a similar problem that only in the last 10-15 years has it graduated away from, with new items of much higher quality. AZL and MTL being the primary manufacturers of realistic American equipment, the introduction of more players on the field may spur competition and acceptable quality levels. As more quality products appear more will likely be drawn to the scale.

[John]

Note that none of us (I hope) are dismissing "small" layouts.

</preemption>

absolutely not .. I had a 2x4 for a long time .. it gave me my fix .. Z has a lot of potential, and I have seen that huge Alpine layout at Timonium .. what a treat ..

[Chris333]

If AZL comes out with their Heavy 2-8-2 that will be something that could keep me in Z. Hard to model (the Erie) when there isn't a single locomotive to start with.

[David K. Smith]

Note that none of us (I hope) are dismissing "small" layouts.

Not at all. Just the cutesy novelty ones with three-inch radius curves and fantasy-land villages. Mine is only 15 by 36 inches and it doesn't (or at least I hope it doesn't) look "cute."
 

I too believe Z is plagued by Chicken & Egg Syndrome, however N scale had a similar problem that only in the last 10-15 years has it graduated away from, with new items of much higher quality...

Thing is, N scale hasn't been around that much longer than Z, and Z still lags way behind. Part of this is the practicality of the scale; it verges on being too small to accomplish what can be done with relative ease in N scale. And with a smaller market naturally comes higher prices and fewer products--another chicken-and-egg type issue that probably won't go away anytime soon. There's also no entry-level products to entice newbies (which is probably a good thing, considering that newbies and Z scale are not a good mix).

But then consider that T scale has a bigger variety of roadbed track to offer than Z scale (go figure that one out)...

[ednadolski]

The real advantage to Z is the ability to model without compression in a reasonable space. 

But do many Z scale layouts really avail themselves of that opportunity by using prototype proportions such as #8 or #10 (or longer) turnouts, or larger curve radii?  A 10-degree curve scales out to 31" radius in Z (so a scale Tehachapi Loop in Z still would be about 5' diameter, compared to just a bit over 7' diameter in N  ).   So it seems to me that even in Z some compression likely is needed.

Then of course uncompressed proportions also need prototype train lengths to look right.  Costs aside, how hard is it to reliably run a 100-110 car train in Z, esp. on say a 2.2% grade with DPUs?   

Also, is there any other rail besides Code 40?   That scales out to almost 9" high, which is overlarge even for heavy mainline rail.

Ed

[bambuko]

...Also, is there any other rail besides Code 40?   That scales out to almost 9" high, which is overlarge even for heavy mainline rail...

there are code25/code30 alternatives, which (in my opinion) look a lot better than anything available commercially (see here) or on David's website, but this is really not a mainstream solution - more like "hardcore" modelling, rather than "credit card" modelling  ;D

Chris

[wm3798]

I don't get Z, but I've seen some incredible stuff, usually one-off things by the masters here.  Chris and David have layouts that translate well to interwebs pictures, but I've never seen a Z scale layout up close and personal, other than the aforementioned "cutesie" briefcase jobs at train shows.  As such my realm of experience is limited.

I look at the practicality of the things you have to do to make them work.  Rail size? Rail joiners? Turnout mechanisms?  functional, reliable couplers?  I'm sure there are answers to all of these questions, but they're beyond my level of curiosity. I think these factors, in concert with the cost per ton, will keep Z scale a novelty scale, and the playground of a few evil geniuses.  And perhaps that's as it should be.

Lee